Who's the best driver not to have won a title?

[Hazza]

I was thinking about this, and I couldn't think of an answer.

Obviouisly, Greg's name comes up, but I feel he would have won one had his career lasted a few more years.

Dario Franchetti? He got as close as you can get.

Surly there are some other names, so discuss!

[Flatspot]

I think statistically that would have to fall to Bobby Unser as far as wins and avg placement per start but he was only in 37 races. Tom Sneva follows a close second.

In the more modern cars certainly Franchitti then Junqueria looks pretty strong with no championship.

[Electrocuted]

Not a flame,,, but I wonder why Paul Tracy never won the championship with competition??
It's a shame, shouldnt have to since he was the fastest,, but I do put an * by his name.

[ensign14]

Bobby U was champ in '68 and '74 and Sneva in '77-8. Yes, I am counting the AAA/USAC titles...

I'm thinking Parnelli Jones or Bill Vukovich.

[JohnSSC]

Based on talent, I would throw Danny Ongais and Kevin Cogan's names into the ring.

More recently Franchitti and Robby Gordon come to mind. Gordon on unused talent, Franchitti on both talent and performance.

[ensign14]

I understand Ongais, but Cogan? He had a Penske drive and in his entire career scored but 1 win. OK, he was robbed at Indy in '85, but that'd still be fewer than Teo Fabi and Mark Blundell. Am I missing something?

[BootsOntheSide]

I think Greg Moore, Danny Ongais and Helio Castro Neves would be among the front-runners for this honour. I don't count guys who won USAC titles in the same way.

[Roninho]

Since i feel that wins don't say all about how good of a championshipdriver someone is, i looked at cart final championship-positions. So here are all drivers that finished in the top 5 at least twice.

Sneva - 2e, 3e, 4e, 5e in championship
Fabi - 2nd & 4th
Bobby Unser - 2e & 2e
Carter - 3e & 5e
Gordon - 5e &5e
Johncock - 3e, 4e & 4e
C. Fittipaldi - 5e & 5e
Fernandez - 2e & 4e
Franchitti - 2e, 3e & 4e
Brack - 2e & 4e
Junquira - 2e, 2e & 2e
Carpentier - 3e, 3e, 5e

Since Sneva, Bobby Unser and Johncock won the usac-championship before cart was formed, imo it wouldn't be fair to call them "no-indycar champs". Imo same should be applied to brack.

Of the remaining list imo fittipaldi, carpentier and gordon never were really in the hunt for the championship. Junky has a great cv, but imo that has also a lot to do with the fact that he's been in the best teams for years and the opposition is simply not at the same level. So he's off as well. I don't know how close Carter was in the championship the year he finished 3rd, but only 1 win in 116 races and 1 x top 10 (apart from 3rd and 5th) isn't that much.

That leaves fabi, fernandez and franchitti.
Fabi had 2 great years, but in the other years he mostly performed mid-pack or as an also-ran. Sure switching back and forth between F1 and car didn't help and the limited budget teams as well, but imo he's off because of the limited nr. of years he performed. This is best illustrated by his wins. 4 of his 5 wins were in '83, his rookie year in which he finished 2nd.

Fernandez had a couple of more years that he ran sub-top, but was also hampered by mid-pack teams in his early years and by forming his own team during the last couple of years. Even though, still imo he was competitive in more years, illustrated by 8 wins in 5 different seasons.

Franchitti has the most wins (10) of all the non-champions. He finished 2nd (tied with montoya), 3rd and 4th and 7th. Only his injury-season and his rookie year out of the top 10. Now 4th in irl-standings and 6th last year and already has 3 wins in irl even though he isn't the oval-master. Imo his injury's have plagued him and he isn't the same anymore, but of this list certainly the best one without a championship.

[rustyfan]

Mark Martin, obviously.

Oops, wrong forum

Kidding aside, I'd put my vote on Franchitti.

[N I Tram]

I'd say that the IRL when Brack won it wasn't as strong as IRL or ChampCars are now, although his form in 2003 compared to Kanaan in the other top Honda car suggests that he had champion ability, so he is probably eligible for the list in that sense. My pick would probably be Fabi, simply because had he focused on ChampCars longterm he would've surely taken at least 1 title. His record in F1 doesn't really reflect how good he was either. That said, how about someone like Johansson or Gugelmin, who raced in ChampCar after their supposed peak but were still competitive?

[Snrub]

Look at the 2000 and 2001 championships. Moreno, Brack and Fernandez were awfully close towards the end. If things had gone differently they could have won it.

As for PT, how did PT drive pre-2003? He was never consistant. He's also a headcase so he required not only on staff mental health professionals, but full support from his team. He needed people who believed in him. No astrick required. There are also people who nearly win a championship (and sometime win) because of the right circumstances. PT was doing well in the championship in 1997 and if he had a better car he might have won the championship.

[JohnSSC]

Ensign14: I pick Cogan not for what he did do, but for his potential. He was even faster than Ongais - he just couldn't get it together for a race distance.

Robby Gordon suffers from much the same affliction as the above-mentioned Mr. Cogan: Bags of talent but no results.

For those of you too young to remember, Teo Fabi was unreal when he was on his game and had decent equipment - absolutely untouchable.

Brack should have won the CART Championship while he was with Rahal, but sadly for him his team mate was Max Papis who managed to knock Kenny out of a race not once but TWICE while Kenny was leading, causing Kenny to DNF both times. I don't think Max gets a Christmas card from Kenny...

Rustyfan, Mark Martin is probably the best driver to have never won a championship!

[runshaw]

Tarso Marques

[BSchneiderFan]

Looking further back, I'd have to say Daniel Sexton Gurney.

[SALEEN S7R]

Justin Wilson or Bruno Junqeria. For now anyway.

[Hazza]

What about Bryan Herta? Okay, he's good, if we raced 16 Rounds at Laguna, he'd be king, but obviously he has SOME talent right?

He's scored less wins then Blundell, and would you count him as a could be champion?

On the topic of ex-F1 drivers, what about Salo or Lehto?

[BootsOntheSide]

Herta was anonymous far too often, which is why both Rahal and Ganassi dropped him (he was unfortuante to lose the Forsythe drive, it's quite possible that, if funding was in place, he would have kept that for 2002), although he's found some form on the ovals. Certainly not a name I'd consider for this list however.

[Snrub]

Herta was too fluky, but it does bring up a good point. The way the series was with many competitive teams and drivers, it really wouldn't have taken much for simply a good driver to pull off a championship. I can't really think of a good example of that though. I suppose Rahal's championship without a win would demonstrate the possibility of what I'm talking about.

I really think Salo was a lot better than his record ever showed. Watching F1 decade he certainly had some nice performances in '95. Lehto is a good sports car driver, but I never found him impressive in OW. Salo has been doing some races in ALMS on in the Maserati. I really think CC lost out by not keeping him in the series in 2003. He showed a LOT of talent.

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I suppose Rahal's championship without a win would demonstrate the possibility of what I'm talking about.

Rahal never one the title without a win

[Jordi]

Dario is an obvious choice. I mean, in the way he exploded in 1998 you could see he was going to win the title. He was about the only one on par with Zanardi and later Montoya.

Bräck should have won a title indeed and he would probably have won one had he been here longer.

Greg is my other choice (because I haven't seen much more else before their time). I love Greg, he was going to win multiple titles for sure. Maybe Gil wouldn't have any CART titles if Greg had been there, but Gil has two and I'm happy for him. He's a deserving champ.

[Pete Fenelon]

Teo Fabi, for me - he was blindingly quick when he first started in CART, but sacrificed some good years driving sheds and bouncing between CART and F1...