LMP2 engine changes? (merged)

[JAG]

Just watched an interview with Daniel Poissenot (sp) of the ACO and he was hinting there could be some changes to LMP2 engine specs to improve reliabilty for privateers.

He talked about possibly reducing power slighlty and introducing 'series line' engines.

I presusme by this he means 'production' based engines, possibly GT2 type spec, 500bhp?

Wonder how an RSR engines stacks up against a Judd or AER, price wise?

[skycafe]

Just read basically the same thing on DSC. I am sure he doesn't want a Porsche RSR in the mix since everyone is now up in arms about the Porsche's in ALMS. I think intead looking for others from Japan or Europe, but I wonder how much capacity you have to give a 'stock block' to compete against the race engines? Unless you give them capacity and hold back on restrictors you are going to have some very expensive engines or gernades-or both.

robert

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by JAG

Just watched an interview with Daniel Poissenot (sp) of the ACO and he was hinting there could be some changes to LMP2 engine specs to improve reliabilty for privateers.

I'm a little confused about the reasoning...to improve reliability? Wasn't aware there was a reliability issue with LMP2 engines. Now I know there is an issue with the power-to-weight ratio LMP1 vs. LMP2....

775kgs @ 550 hp = 1.409 kgs/hp

vs.

925 kgs @ 650 hp = 1.42 kgs/hp

Is that the ACO's way of describing the above? LMP2s need more reliability?

[Fogelhund]

A couple of thoughts.

Are homologated engines a weight penalty over their pure racing counterparts? Perhaps this is partially a methodology to allow an interested party into the mix???

Add weight to all of the cars, then the Homologated engine has a place.

I am also confused about the engine reliability issue. It really is the other parts, which perhaps may have been slightly compromised by needing to get down to weight. Perhaps an increase in weight will allow for the build of more "sturdy" parts, in addition to addressing the LMP1 vs. LMP2 power to weight issue.

[MulsanneMike]

From what I've heard, there is a weight increase coming for LMP2. That would jive much better if homologated engine are being considered as they have a considerable weight disadvantage over purpose built racing engines. Sounds like Daniel Poissenot is prepping everyone for the weight increase. Just wish they wouldn't skirt around the issue...

[ger80]

If you take this

775kgs @ 550 hp = 1.409 kgs/hp

vs.

925 kgs @ 650 hp = 1.42 kgs/hp

and calculate the power divided by the max. engine size:

550hp/3400 ccm = 0,16hp/ccm
650hp/6000 ccm = 0,10hp/ccm

you see that a LMP2 engine has more power per ccm. So its more a racing engine and thats makes them less reliability. Of couse most LMP1 engines are smaller in reality.
Think 800kg and 450hp with an mim. weight for the engine and an standard space which must be in every chassis to enable them for different engines would be good.
Thats why the Porsche is so fast, the chassis is build completly for one engine. Others like Lola and Courage have to be more flexibel and can not optimize there chassis in the same way. Look the back of the Porsche chassis ....

[Tim Northcutt]

Hmmmm....

Question:

How many teams or builders thus far have explored the option of running a GT2 homologated normally aspirated engine up to 4.0 L that is currently allowed within the LMP2 regs????

Answer:

Zero

I agree with all who have said that there will probably be a weight increase, but this "stock block" bit will see the same number of teams or builders participating in it as the GT2 engine option did....

[paul-collins]

Originally Posted by ger80

If you ... calculate the power divided by the max. engine size you see that a LMP2 engine has more power per ccm. So its more a racing engine and thats makes them less reliability.

Less reliability - the proof is in the pudding, so they say. How many LMP2 engine failures have we seen in the last year? I can't think of any...

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Less reliability - the proof is in the pudding, so they say. How many LMP2 engine failures have we seen in the last year? I can't think of any...

I'll give you a hint. Zoom Zoom.

[tux]

mazda?

[Erki]

Intersport's AER at Road America?

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Erki

Intersport's AER at Road America?

Gearbox Failure, causing a fire. Not an engine failure.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

I'm a little confused about the reasoning...to improve reliability? Wasn't aware there was a reliability issue with LMP2 engines. Now I know there is an issue with the power-to-weight ratio LMP1 vs. LMP2....

775kgs @ 550 hp = 1.409 kgs/hp

vs.

925 kgs @ 650 hp = 1.42 kgs/hp

Is that the ACO's way of describing the above? LMP2s need more reliability?

He distinctly said the chassis are fine, reliability wise, the problems are with the engines (maybe he meant the whole engine/gearbox package and the stresses being put on them?).

He went onto talk about the 'series line' engines being introduced.

I'm guessing they'll increase weight to 800kg, reduce power to 500bhp (current Judds, AER etc.) and encourage off the shelf production based engines from GT2.

Who knows, they may even follow Grand Am and homologate individual engines so the likes of the Panoz V8 could be used, bypassing the current 4l limit for GT2 engines.

I cannot emphasise enough how he insisted LMP2 was for privateers, leaving the big boys to LMP1. When asked about the Penske RS Spyder, he replied it would be better to see privateer versions at Le Mans.

[zac510]

Any comments from the ACO on changes to the wheel/tyre differences too?

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

Hmmmm....

Question:

How many teams or builders thus far have explored the option of running a GT2 homologated normally aspirated engine up to 4.0 L that is currently allowed within the LMP2 regs????

Answer:

Zero

Is it because of in modern LMPs the engine is part of a load bearing structure and GT engines are less suited for such installation?

[Garrett]

The-Paddock.net are reporting that Daniel Poissenot is not happy with the reliability of the LMP2 machines. He hinted to Motors TV that some changes could take place for P1 and P2 becuse of this.

Then, it has been talked about on Radio Le Mans that LMP1 will become an all closed top proto class (GTP)!!!!!!!

I wonder if Mr. Poissenot has the idea of getting rid of P2 and having P1 protos only. This could also tie in with P1 becoming an all GTP category, meaings that the future P1 cars would only be closed top while the exitisting open top protos (i.e Audi R10) would be called P2?

Example: LMP1= Closed top cars (Maybe the future Peugeot 908)
LMP2= Open top cars (Audi R10, Pesca C60h, etc.)

What are your thoughts???

[Adam43]

LMP2 threads merged
The closed LMP1 point is brought up elsewhere too.

[ss_collins]

No as I understand it LMP2 is mooted to become a stock block Formula, P1 largely unchanged but bio diesel, and hybrid fully regulated

[dj choc ice]

well this would kill the LMP2 category and would destroy many engine makers, just look at judd they run 10 cars with their engines in this year at lemans and also AER run a fair few cars with their engine and then there is the odd mecachrome V8 floating around but i dont think daniel poissonot will do this, it will destroy the LMP2 field and the class itself and its beggining to make my hate of the ACO become worse and worse, first diesel and slowing the cars down and now they want to completely change and pretty much destroy LMP2 sounds like a certain chelsea footbal club manager to me

[JAG]

They won't ban current race engines, just make homolagated engines competitive with them.

Cars slowing.........seen how quick they are lapping recently?

Personally I think the ACO are doing a great job, finally listening to the manufactuers, fans and helping out the series organisors, i.e. the ALMS.

BTW, were can I find the PR for the ACO press conference online?

[Tim Northcutt]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

From what I've heard, there is a weight increase coming for LMP2. That would jive much better if homologated engine are being considered as they have a considerable weight disadvantage over purpose built racing engines. Sounds like Daniel Poissenot is prepping everyone for the weight increase. Just wish they wouldn't skirt around the issue...

This makes perfect sense, especially when melded with your power vs. weight comparisons, Mike....

and it might allow others to run a homologated engine at a lower cost than a purpose-built race engine, yet still be competitive....

However, if what ss-collins states is true...that LMP2 would become a "Formula Stock Block" class, then I think the ACO will be sending a bad message to Honda/Acura and to Porsche...

I hope that Mike and Jag are correct in this...that the weight goes up to make a homologated production-based engine more competitive, but still allow the purpose-built race engines to compete.....this would make the most sense....

[JAG]

On the Motors TV interview, Poissenot (sp) talked about reducing the power of the current engine as well as introducing stockblock motors, not replacing one for the other.

[dj choc ice]

thanks for the news JAG, i thought they were going to swap the race engines for the stock block engine, but stock block engines would not be able to be put into the cars because of size now would they?
i mean the limit for engine size in LMP2 is 2.0 turbo or 3.4 V8 N/A and the stocj block GT2 engines all exceed that figure bar the gillet vertigo alfa romeo V6 i think, not unless these rules come in and the ACO raise the maximum size for stock block engine

[TheNewBob]

The 2006-spec Alfa V6 in the Vertigo has been increased in capacity... I think to 4.0 litres? or something very similar, so it is also too big for LMP2 right now.

It's an interesting thought of stock units - if it's to allow cheaper running whilst still being competitive, it can bring up something of a fine line to follow. Make the stock blocks too competitive, and the race-bred engines will disappear. But if the stock units aren't quick enough, then the idea will die off very quickly through lack of interest.

Having said this, if they raise the engine capacity to suit the stock blocks, then the next generation of racing engines will be made bigger to suit the regs, thus perhaps making the stock units uncompetitive once more.

So, would they introduce a "turbo-only" feature for pukka race-bred engines and keep the 2.0 litre rule and let the stock blocks have N/A status all alone? There is quite a lot to backfire if they don't get it right with the rules.

[Supercar]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Less reliability - the proof is in the pudding, so they say. How many LMP2 engine failures have we seen in the last year? I can't think of any...

Intersport AER at Le Mans 2005, fire at Road America, blown engines in test sessions, other broken powertrain components. Last year's LMP2 Le Mans was ridiculous. RML came back after about 10 pitstop repairs to win it. They were lucky that their failures were not race-ending, as it was for many of their other classmates. The competition was basically reduced to who fixes their broken stuff first.

LMP2's have the highest power/weight and power/displacement ratios. Was this an oversight, miscalculation? With the exception of Porsche they are all privateers.