Miller on merger attempt

[indycool]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/42686/

[Fogelhund]

Well, let's assume that we take Miller at face value.

“It hasn’t happened yet but we’ve certainly considered going,” said Haas, who along with Paul Newman and Mike Lanigan own Champ Car’s most visible and successful operation. “It may not happen this year, but it’s highly probable we’ll do it in 2009 because there needs to be one series.”

This statement doesn't make sense to me. If it is highly probable, why waste money, and just get this done. All that needs to happen is two teams move... then it's over.

[indycool]

Fogel, I read that as Haas hasn't ruled out moving for '08. He says they've "certainly considered going" and he doesn't say a decision has been reached.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by indycool

Fogel, I read that as Haas hasn't ruled out moving for '08. He says they've "certainly considered going" and he doesn't say a decision has been reached.

It was rumoured elsewhere, before Miller's article, that a decision had indeed been made.

[Denosaur]

How nice of Tony, after CC spent all that cash on the DP01 and everything else.

Someone should remind Tony that he's Tony George and not Tony Soprano. I don't blame CC for turning him down.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Denosaur

I don't blame CC for turning him down.

That really is a yet to be determined. Perhaps the series organizers turned him down, but if two teams switch, it's over.

[mountainstar]

I had heard something was up.

However, wouldn't be surprised if this particular offer was hot air.

Probably the best solution would be for tony george to go back to being a track owner and have a new company formed to run the championship.

Both the irl and cart/champcar have been listed on record as losing money. No one I think has an advantage at the moment. Why not form a new company that way no one loses or complains of an advantage?

Essentially the offer, if true is not much different than Jan 2004. And it doesn't really offer much to champcar and it's teams.

There are rumors that XM is gone from the irl and honda is on it's way. A lot of irl teams are having struggles with sponsorship. If I was champcar I wouldn't be so quick to jump at any offer.

[cptkablamo]

Honda maybe more willing to stay if they had competition...I'm sure Cosworth could dig out an IRL engine, dust off some Panoz IRL chassis and go from there (to allow CCWS orgs in)...

It is a start - at least there are offers flying round I suppose...

[climb]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

...

Probably the best solution would be for tony george to go back to being a track owner and have a new company formed to run the championship.

At the moment IRL is in better (or, to make you happy, in less worse) shape, so I don't see why should Tony give it up and consign the american OW racing to a bunch of (moto racing) failure makers

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Both the irl and cart/champcar have been listed on record as losing money. No one I think has an advantage at the moment. Why not form a new company that way no one loses or complains of an advantage?

Provided 50/50 companies never work well (there needs to be a leader, like him or not) it's not certainly IRL downsizing to a team owner that would accomplish this fair principle

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Essentially the offer, if true is not much different than Jan 2004. And it doesn't really offer much to champcar and it's teams.

maybe ... survival?

Originally Posted by mountainstar

There are rumors that XM is gone from the irl and honda is on it's way.

The first rumour sounds quite new to me, and the second is totally absurd given the profits Honda make providing IRL engines

Originally Posted by mountainstar

.. If I was champcar I wouldn't be so quick to jump at any offer.

We're not talking about "any offer", but a very precise one, and if Haas is considering it, other CC teams are bound to do the same.

[indycool]

Actually, the offer seems to be an evolution and was not just made recently. There were rumblings that something was going on back in November and December in west side Indy bar talk. IMO, that's when this concept was being discussed.

It seems to be evolved from around '05, BEFORE The Amigos sprung the DP-01 and declared it the great saviour. At the time, programs were started for Indy only with the Speedway, Honda and the big teams forming a package for smaller teams to do Indy one-offs more cheaply.

That continued to evolve in '06 and '07 and then the IRL/Speedway came out with its overall deal last fall for '08 of an increased purse for Indy, decreased purses the rest of the way and $1.2 million per car to those who commit to the series.

From the article, it appears that some CC car owners were unaware of the offer that was on the table, at least at some point -- no telling now whether it still is or not. But if Forsythe wanted $100 million on top of that....well, when pigs fly.

[luke]

Looks as though there will be just 1 series in 2009 for many reasons.

[Kieran20]

hey are both going to die, is they dont see sense, merge and use both recourses to make one good open wheel championship, we will not be seeing champ car or indy car in years to come, whatever one is in better shape right now.

they use the DP01 on road courses and the IRL car (cant remember the name) for the ovals.

[indycool]

Kieran, that's not going to happen, making the teams buy two different sets of cars. Every car owner would have their middle finger in the air if that happened.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by climb

At the moment IRL is in better (or, to make you happy, in less worse) shape, so I don't see why should Tony give it up and consign the american OW racing to a bunch of (moto racing) failure makers

Provided 50/50 companies never work well (there needs to be a leader, like him or not) it's not certainly IRL downsizing to a team owner that would accomplish this fair principle

The first rumour sounds quite new to me, and the second is totally absurd given the profits Honda make providing IRL engines

We're not talking about "any offer", but a very precise one, and if Haas is considering it, other CC teams are bound to do the same.

I don't think any of us are in the position to say it was a very precise offer. All that exists now is a robin miller story with an unnamed source.

I'd disagree the irl is in better shape. Fred Nation admitted several years ago the irl had never made a profit. It has been estimated recently the irl had burned though over $300 million since 1996.

If you think you're in a great position let's wait and see what turns up at Homestead? And indy? Duno, Roth, Chesson are hardly names people will be vaulting barricades to see race.

Can't see why a new company could not be formed that way there is no bickering. Plenty of smart people out there available to run a good series.

Forsythe and Kalkoven have enough money that if they are really ****ed off enough they can subsidize champcar for years to come.

[indycool]

The part where Forsythe wanted $100 million, if true, on top of the deal, is insanity. They bought it off the courthouse steps for $3 million four years ago. It'd take a lot of convincing for me to believe it's appreciated 33 times its sales price since then. TG isn't going to pay for The Amigos' frayed balance sheet.

If I'm TG (or his staff), I'd deal with race teams wanting to enter the series, not The Amigos. He doesn't need what they own. He needs what the car owners own.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

The part where Forsythe wanted $100 million, if true, on top of the deal, is insanity. They bought it off the courthouse steps for $3 million four years ago. It'd take a lot of convincing for me to believe it's appreciated 33 times its sales price since then. TG isn't going to pay for The Amigos' frayed balance sheet.

If I'm TG (or his staff), I'd deal with race teams wanting to enter the series, not The Amigos. He doesn't need what they own. He needs what the car owners own.

Not really. What TG offered doesn't really offer much to the champcar side. It's like he's doin us a favor by taking a few races off our hands and making available some engines and cars. Not much really towards all the investment that has been made on the champcar side and it's teams.

The problem with tg is that he has always treated the cart side as a non entity since 1989. I say put the ego aside for once. You have a race series that has lost money since 1996. You have a sparse field this year with 2 cars you directly fund yourself. You are going to have to dig up 15+ cars to fill the indy grid. Time to let go. He acts like he is the only one with a stake in this whole deal. MEMEMEMEME.

What is the opposition to forming a totally new race series not run by any current owners?

[johntt]

Originally Posted by indycool

Kieran, that's not going to happen, making the teams buy two different sets of cars. Every car owner would have their middle finger in the air if that happened.

Got that right, the current Dallara IRL car can run on all types of oval and road and street tracks, theres no need to run the DP01 alongside the Dallara.

That said, an oval aero package for the DP01 would help bridge the gap between the series.

[BootsOntheSide]

The end result of this deal would be a better series than either IRL or ChampCar can seriously hope to provide in the forseeable future. $100m is a good reward for 4 years' working against the tide. The teams who've been loyal to ChampCar will be well looked-after. With the DP01 having done nothing to boost car counts and at least 2 top drivers gone, ChampCar's bargaining position is far lower than it was a year ago. The IRL is noticeably in the less bad position, and seems more likely to still be functioning in 2009. As long as the invite will be extended to all the teams, I think it would be best for everyone if this offer (should it exist) was accepted.

[Alex K]

Because CC's lying mountainstar, he is doing you a favor that wants to speak to your series. Can't you understand that? He's doing rather alright without Champ Car, Walker, Haas and even Vasser say they will consider swapping neighbourhoods in Indianapolis. Why if Forsythe and kalkhoven can sink millions of US$ in to series in years to come?

How many cars will The Amigos subidize? 14+?! Bloke, get down to earth, Amigos doesn't have any sponsors, no engine badger, no good TV deal, problems with race promoters, dumb Euro project.

You, die-hard fans of CC do vampire of Tony George. When he only wants to succeed with his own product. He is doing OK with IndyCar Series, got cars, Manufacturer, pretty well backed big teams, good financial programme for smaller team, and reborn IPS... Read carefully the forum you write on, the other one?! Crapwagon.com. It's fll of hatred to IndyCar Series and its founder, not a boss anymore. You hail your series even when it's in a state of demise and collapse.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Alex K

Because CC's lying mountainstar, he is doing you a favor that wants to speak to your series. Can't you understand that? He's doing rather alright without Champ Car, Walker, Haas and even Vasser say they will consider swapping neighbourhoods in Indianapolis.

How many cars will The Amigos subidize? 14+?! Bloke, get down to earth, Amigos doesn't have any sponsors, no engine badger, no good TV deal.

You, die-hard fans of CC do Vampire of Tony George. When he only wants to succeed with his own product. Read carefully the forum you write on, the other one?! Crapwagon.com. It's fll of hatred to IndyCar Series and its founder, not a boss anymore. You hail your series even when it's in a state of demise and collapse.

Yes TG has to bear his responsibility in this whole mess and make amends. What does he expect, for us to stand and clap at how great his management and business skills have been these past 15 years and the contempt he showed for CART/Champcar and all those involved since 1989. He need to do more than offer an olive branch, he needs to offer a goddamned olive tree.

The amigos have plenty of money to string this out as long as they want to.

Doing us a favor? Do you pay any attention? The irl is struggling for car counts and sponsors? Would you sell your business and assets for free?

Here again what I propose is neutral territory. No one gets their panties in a wad over it. Tony goes back to being a track owner and/or team owner. The amigos do the same. A new company is formed to run a series. What is so wrong with that?????????

I guess you missed the point of crapwagon.com. One of the founding principles is that members hate the irl and tony george. We hate the irl and tony george. I hate tony george and the irl. Tony George started the "we destroyed, gassed and napalmed the village to save it", so let's take it to the end of the line.

[Alex K]

And I don't hate anyone. And I do not read this crapwagon thing, because it looks to me, I read few threads there, that you people do not know anything about motorsport business, you are run by crazy writers who put lot of false information... there are many places in the internet where you can find die hard CC fans putting BS and creating fantasy.

And you're problem is, that you're not making decision, this is business decision, both parties can agree or not, if not I think you won't see your beloved laming series in the future, even though, as you said, Amigos can put loads of money in to it for years to come. WOW, they're rich and generous.

[indycool]

mountainstar, I have always been for one series. Frankly, we would've been back to one series at the CART bankruptcy hearing except The Amigos got in the way. TG may well have started the split in 1996 but The Amigos made sure it stayed split in 2004.

Hating Tony George is the only reason CC exists now among CC-supporting forum posters. Among The Amigos, KK is a venture capitalist who dipped his wick into a minefield he knew nothing about, Forsythe was trying to make up $30 million in CART stock losses, Gentilozzi was trying to a big shooter in racing and Petit was toddling along after KK. They badly misread the general public by looking at forum posters at F-Troop and thinking they were too numerous and influential for CC not to be successful. TG ain't going to pay for their mistakes, nor should he.

So, you're right, they can go on as long as they want to spend the money. But it really doesn't act like they want to spend as much money any more to make the series what you and many other CC supporters want it to be. Your F list seems to gain members every day and I know I made it a long time ago.

In the last week, a disappointing TV package got announced; Cotman, the race director, quit; Matos told CC to stuff its $2 million Atlantic prize; and Jani came out and said he doesn't know what's going to happen to CC and he's not pursuing it. Before that, they fired Beaux Barfield and hired Johnny Unser as race director for Atlantics.

And if Miller is correct, and they haven't paid their '07 prize money yet, they're using the paltry purses as leverage against teams to jump or else not pay 'em.

Does that make for a good series that everyone seems to want or is hating Tony George more important than anything?

[Peter Ford]

To me it sounds like tony george wants complete control over the teams and the series and no one will be able to do anything about it.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Alex K

And I don't hate anyone. And I do not read this crapwagon thing, because it looks to me, I read few threads there, that you people do not know anything about motorsport business, you are run by crazy writers who put lot of false information... there are many places in the internet where you can find die hard CC fans putting BS and creating fantasy.

And you're problem is, that you're not making decision, this is business decision, both parties can agree or not, if not I think you won't see your beloved laming series in the future, even though, as you said, Amigos can put loads of money in to it for years to come. WOW, they're rich and generous.

You read a few threads there, hardly the expert. We like champcar, nothing wrong with that. I'm in the motorsport business and am hardly crazy because I like champcar.

You seem to lack understanding of what has happened over the past 20 years. There are other people and interests to consider other than tony georges. What about everyone else that has a stake in the business? What about them?

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by indycool

mountainstar, I have always been for one series. Frankly, we would've been back to one series at the CART bankruptcy hearing except The Amigos got in the way. TG may well have started the split in 1996 but The Amigos made sure it stayed split in 2004.

Hating Tony George is the only reason CC exists now among CC-supporting forum posters. Among The Amigos, KK is a venture capitalist who dipped his wick into a minefield he knew nothing about, Forsythe was trying to make up $30 million in CART stock losses, Gentilozzi was trying to a big shooter in racing and Petit was toddling along after KK. They badly misread the general public by looking at forum posters at F-Troop and thinking they were too numerous and influential for CC not to be successful. TG ain't going to pay for their mistakes, nor should he.

So, you're right, they can go on as long as they want to spend the money. But it really doesn't act like they want to spend as much money any more to make the series what you and many other CC supporters want it to be. Your F list seems to gain members every day and I know I made it a long time ago.

In the last week, a disappointing TV package got announced; Cotman, the race director, quit; Matos told CC to stuff its $2 million Atlantic prize; and Jani came out and said he doesn't know what's going to happen to CC and he's not pursuing it. Before that, they fired Beaux Barfield and hired Johnny Unser as race director for Atlantics.

And if Miller is correct, and they haven't paid their '07 prize money yet, they're using the paltry purses as leverage against teams to jump or else not pay 'em.

Does that make for a good series that everyone seems to want or is hating Tony George more important than anything?

Well to be completely clear, I separate the business and personal side of it. I know someone who knows tg and apparently he is the nicest guy around. If I met him I wouldn't punch him in the mouth. But I strongly disagree with the tact he has taken with open wheel racing and refuse to support it.

I'm all for one series, as long as there some equality there. The irl is hardly successful and champcar is having a hard time right now. It is not working well. Why not put all that aside, put the egos aside, tg can run his speedway and team, the amigos run toronto and long beach and their teams and start an independent company managed and run by an independent party?

If all you are offering is unilateral surrender then get stuffed. If you want to be equitable, then I and others would be open to listening.