Would anyone fancy a change from the Silhouette series?

[Mike Sheraton]

just wondering whether any V8 supercar fans would prefer to switch back to proper touring cars, just like in the late 80s when sierra cosworths battled holden v8s

[mildura1963]

Mike, I would love to see a 2010 version of Group C.. Falcon V Commodore V BMW V Jaguar V Mazda...would be great.

[Trevor]

I dream for the day when production cars race production cars with the same level of support (sponsors, corporate & TV) that the V8's currently enjoy.

[Mike Sheraton]

exactly my thoughts guys, would be great to see it!!!
keep it coming

[Razor]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

I dream for the day when production cars race production cars with the same level of support (sponsors, corporate & TV) that the V8's currently enjoy.

Same. I think that's why the V8 Utes have been so popular over the many years. Production cars (only a few safety and parity modifications) with massive support means that strength to strength they have enjoyed.

[Trevor]

The Utes are very popular as they do some old fashioned racing without all the hype and over regualtion.

[peckstar]

sounds a little bit boring to me, we would end up with the days of one marque dominating again, yawn

there has to be a way between what we have now and hotted up production cars

[anthony81901]

Originally Posted by peckstar

sounds a little bit boring to me, we would end up with the days of one marque dominating again, yawn

Bit like the 2010 V8SC series is likely to be. For all of its faults, the Group A era did see 6 manufacturers win the ATCC or Bathurst over 8 years.

[peckstar]

Imn not sure thats a redeeming feature, we ended up with all these cars that the paying punter couldnt relate to and so people stopped going and watching.

You want mainstream support, that people who support it have to be able to relate to the series, remmeber the 2 litre series

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by peckstar

Imn not sure thats a redeeming feature, we ended up with all these cars that the paying punter couldnt relate to and so people stopped going and watching.

You want mainstream support, that people who support it have to be able to relate to the series, remmeber the 2 litre series

......but now the supercars are heading towards another version of commodore cup......group A was better.

[Jacob Black]

People seem to forget that there was very little passing (except of lapped traffic, that the gaps between cars in qualifying alone were often as much as 3 or 4 seconds (car to car!) and that close finishes were rare.

In recent times, the whole field is separated by 3 seconds (the top 25 by 1.5), we've consistantly recorded close finishes, and there is still more passing than in previous evolutions of the category.

I would like to see the cars be more relevant to the road, I would like to see other manufacturers, but to claim that the old days made for better racing is not always accurate.

[mildura1963]

I believe that Group C cars had to be sold in OZ, they even had the original interiors...

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

I dream for the day when production cars race production cars with the same level of support (sponsors, corporate & TV) that the V8's currently enjoy.

Its a fairy story - they are not fast enough, not reliable enough, not safe enough.

Seriously you'd have to have 10 cars a year, it would cost more than the current cars, which is WHY they have evolved as they are.

We have the closest to production body of any touring car series in the world.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by peckstar

sounds a little bit boring to me, we would end up with the days of one marque dominating again, yawn

there has to be a way between what we have now and hotted up production cars

The original idea of touring cars is gone though.

The race cars are supposed to reflect what is run on the road, but of course be turned into a purpose built racing car. The "australian touring car championship"

If what is on the road is an Evo with traction control and electronic diffs, then that should be raced. RX8 rotaries should be in there too, and Falcon F6s etc.

"V8 Supercars" is not "touring cars". They still should give up the ATCC title (and the complimentary official ARDC Bathurst 1000 for touring cars) to some other promoter, who can make a proper job of it.

Originally Posted by peckstar

You want mainstream support, that people who support it have to be able to relate to the series, remmeber the 2 litre series

2000 cc and no turbos were fine rules. At least you still had FWD, RWD and AWD, 4, 5 or 6 cylinders. Australians were just playing silly buggers by not adopting the sensible international rules!!!

2000 cc rules, standardized to BTCC/STCC specs is probably the way. Allowing all makes and models within a certain "box" that is MUCH LARGER(!) than a pushrod V8 australian made box.....

Super Cars -> GT
Super Racing -> Touring Cars

Touring cars can never compete with the exciting 6L V10, 8.3L, V12 etc cars of GT, so they should stick to their good point which is exciting racing.

Leave the big engines to the GTs.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

2000 cc and no turbos were fine rules. At least you still had FWD, RWD and AWD, 4, 5 or 6 cylinders. Australians were just playing silly buggers by not adopting the sensible international rules!!!

Yes, until they banned 4WD cos they were too fast. I prefer my racing cars to sound like a great V8, not some souped up vacuum cleaner. ST style cars are going to cost the same to build and run as V8supercars, and the fan appeal will disappear.

Group A was the "sensible international rules" that was adopted world wide, look what happened first, the Sierra was completely unbeatable for a few years, then the GTR came along and was the same, until it single handedly killed the category outright. Nobody could afford the spending war that series created.

If you compare V8supercars to DTM or other worldwide series they are much more visibly like their roadgoing counterparts and I think its a good compromise.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Jacob Black

People seem to forget that there was very little passing

Bit like we have now.

The thing I like in the Group A days (before homologation specials went crazy) was each car had it's good points and bad points which made it interesting to watch.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by PVDA

The thing I like in the Group A days (before homologation specials went crazy) was each car had it's good points and bad points which made it interesting to watch.

That's right, and Super Touring had a bit of that too, some tracks RWD cars were better others FWD better, but the problem is Group A allowed too much freedom to spend ridiculous amounts developing a road car so there was no appeal for many manufacturers to compete. The THEORY of Group A is sound, if everyone did work within the rules from a true mass-market car, it would work well.

Seeing the '86 race with VK Commodore vs a Mustang vs a Rover Vitesse vs BMW 635 vs Volvo vs Jaguar vs Celica was awesome, but the time has passed.

[Axeman444]

i'd go back further, watching Mini's battling it out with an Impala at Amaroo was great to watch in i think the App J races .

[DAVID PATERSON]

I think Group A was the best formula ever, but it had two flaws. The allowance for 500 sporting evolutions to be built & raced and turbos were inherently advantaged.

So, if we stick to racing the 5000 base models and consider a sliding scale of turbo restrictors or boost limiters, i think you'd have a very exciting class which every manufacturer can run in, every fan can relate to a car and most important of all, every country could sing from the same song sheet.

[RotorFan]

The idea that racing cars have to sound like V8s is such a narrow minded view.

Heres an idea: promote Improved Production and elevate it to a national series. The variety of cars and the great racing would make it a hit, if people knew about it. Then you'd have V8s, rotaries, 4's, 6's, diesels, whatever!

Wouldn't work though, because the V8s wouldn't win!!!

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

The idea that racing cars have to sound like V8s is such a narrow minded view.

Its not narrow minded, its called a preference. Most people prefer it.

Go ask Kelvin O'Reilly how many people like to go watch 2 litre cars race.

[david5]

This version of the ATCC has peaked, COT becomes an important turning point. The category is now feeding on itself, sponsors being poached, teams selling naming right sponsorship rights for peanuts & either tipping in from family fortunes, friends, business etc or just praying for a miracle.

While it all looks shiney to the general paying public, the warning signs are there.
Sure grids are full, but teams are coming & going bailing themselves out by selling their REC to the next hopeful combo.

The two marque V8 formula has ran it's course, no other version of the "Rules" eg, Series production, Improved touring, Group C, Group A, lasted this long, it's time to look to change & implement it with forethought & planning, not have it thrust upon us.

Looking backward is not the answer, however those who do not learn from the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them.

There must be a class that could be adopted that would include the two existing Brands, brings in more & not be glorified Sports sedans. If the cars were 15 seconds a lap slower at Bathurst, as long as the racing was good, would anyone care ?

[Jacob Black]

Yes. I'd care. Slower = backwards in my book.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by david5

This version of the ATCC has peaked, COT becomes an important turning point. The category is now feeding on itself, sponsors being poached, teams selling naming right sponsorship rights for peanuts & either tipping in from family fortunes, friends, business etc or just praying for a miracle.

While it all looks shiney to the general paying public, the warning signs are there. Sure grids are full, but teams are coming & going bailing themselves out by selling their REC to the next hopeful combo.

That's a good point.

One solution would be to increase ticket prices and up the REC entitlement.

Another would be to cut the 105% limit to 110 or 115%. Having a restrictive 105% obviously requires an expensive level one car and a reasonable driver simply in order to not DNQ! Perhaps abolish RECs and allow privateers in old cars in as they please to guarantee a field, if they can be tempted (which obviously for whatever reason they couldn't in the BTCC with it's 2-3 "independent" super tourers in the final season of super touring while 20 or however many private super tourers raced merrily in saloon classes......)

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Its a fairy story - they are not fast enough, not reliable enough, not safe enough.

Seriously you'd have to have 10 cars a year, it would cost more than the current cars, which is WHY they have evolved as they are.

We have the closest to production body of any touring car series in the world.

Are you for real? what rock did you pop out from under?

V8 Supercar engines costs a minimum of $100,000 and you are trying to tell me that a production series like the Utes is going to be dearer, get your V8 blinkers off

LOL, the closest to production body - LOL what a plsser!!! Have a look at the BTCC for a start, then look at the Aussie Utes - LOL