V8 and the engineering challenge

[Kirk]

Well it looks as if the (re)introduction of the V8 to F1 is happening. Theoretically, less cylinders equals less moving parts hence more reliability and cheaper to manufacturer. Which brings to mind many questions, mostly from an engineering perspective. Just what are the challenges involved? Can teams like Sauber, Red Bull, Minardi, Jordan look for a less expensive solution to engine supply, for the simple reason that the engines are less state-of-the-art? Or, is the opposite true, squeezing more horses from a simpler configuration and maintain reliability (for 2 races yet) is a gigantic challenge; so relying on the BMWs and Ferraris of the world to get it right would be a prudent decision? Thoughts?

[Silk Cut Jaguar]

With V8 engines being far more widely used than V10 I'd like to think it will encourage other engine builders to get involved as currently F1 teams are still relying on people already in F1 to get their powerplants which isn't really the best situation to be in.

I'm sure with a bit of fiddling people like Zytek and Audi could make a quick engine out of something they already have.

[Armco Bender]

I'm sure someone can remember how to make a Ford DFV.

[Adam43]

They still make them! They started again recently due to the number used in historic racing. Unfortunately they are a little too big (in all respects), such is progress!

[Kicking-back]

The new rules will also specify things like v-angles etc.

In theory this makes it easier for independent makers to produce a reasonably competitive engine.

However, it may hand a bigger initiative to the manufacturers who can possibly squeeze more out of restrictive rules than a smaller concern.

[neilap]

No matter what the rules are the bigger and better financed teams will always have the advantage. As a matter of fact I feel this makes things even better for the engine builders. BMW, Toyota, Honda etc. will definately have the advantage. Jordan will again be depending on hand-me-downs which have been detuned to assure the lack of competitiveness. In the meanwhile Ferrari will be perfecting their v8s. When all the teams have to use V8s the ones already using them will be so far ahead in development that the Minardi's and Saubers will have taken a step back.

F1 is about the best racing against the best. Not just on the track but also in labs and dynos. I admire the attempt to cut costs but I feel teams will just funnel the dollars into another area. If they did not have the money they would not be in the series to begin with. If BAR has a 200 mil budget and 50 mil has been taken from motor development then its money they can put into aero, or even acquiring more people.

[Kirk]

Originally Posted by neilap

No . BMW, Toyota, Honda etc. will definately have the advantage. Jordan will again be depending on hand-me-downs which have been detuned to assure the lack of competitiveness. In the meanwhile Ferrari will be perfecting their v8s. When all the teams have to use V8s the ones already using them will be so far ahead in development that the Minardi's and Saubers will have taken a step back.

Could be true, but I'm inclined to agree with Silk that other engine builders (with plenty of experience when it comes to V8's) may take up the challenge, and even offer up a surprise or two.
But, as you say, if Minardi and company find themselves behind at first, it may be slightly easier to close that gap; at least easier than it is currently.

[D_Marshall]

What sort of power output do people think the top V8s will be putting out to begin with? Its pretty close to 1000bhp at the moment with the V10s so does around 750ish sound about right?

[Pingguest]

Originally Posted by Silk Cut Jaguar

With V8 engines being far more widely used than V10 I'd like to think it will encourage other engine builders to get involved

I'm not really sure about that. The current rules are too strict. So, it's very difficult for an engine manufactor to make any difference.

[Marbot]

Perhaps Cosworth will do well,after all they were the last team to win with a V8(Benetton) when all around them had V10's or V12's.

[ParkLife]

Why do you all assume that V10 has to be the best solution? And please explain how you instantly assume a V8 is less technically advanced than a V10?

Don't forget Renault were seriously slooking at a V6 for their return to F1. The main reason they scrapped the plan was because of the enforced V10 Formula.

[Knowlesy]

Well whatever, I'm not looking forward to listening to a horde of V8's. If it is as annoying as was listening to the F3000 cars, then I'll be quite upset and emotional.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

Well whatever, I'm not looking forward to listening to a horde of V8's. If it is as annoying as was listening to the F3000 cars, then I'll be quite upset and emotional.

Here here Knowlesy.

The V10 has become the F1 signature sound, no other cars in the world sound like V-10 F1 cars.

[ParkLife]

You know, the pitch of the sound produced is more to do with exhaust harmonics than engine configuration.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ParkLife

You know, the pitch of the sound produced is more to do with exhaust harmonics than engine configuration.

That's very true,Maclaren's car of a few seasons back had a very different exhaust note to other cars and the last Ferrari V12 had a magical exhaust note,also by altering the firing order of an engine can produce different power characteristics and exhaust notes as is often tried with good results in the MOTOGP series,they found that by grouping together pistons on the power stroke they could make the engine more tractable i.e. 2 cylinders firing together instead of 1, usually called a "big bang" engine.

[avsfan733]

Originally Posted by neilap

I admire the attempt to cut costs but I feel teams will just funnel the dollars into another area.

explain to me a single cost cutting measure and how it has actually cut costs...v-8's don't cut costs they mean designing entirely new chassis engines aero dynamics and gearboxes

[cosworth BDG]

The cost difference between v8/v10 will be in development costs of the new engine /configuration ,& this will be mainly taken up by the costs involved in tests involving single cylinder development.

[RWC]

I'm surprised that some of you think there will be any difference to the relative teams competitiveness under the new regulations
The *ONLY* change this makes is that the cars will sound lower pitched (even thought revs will be near identical) and that everyone has to spend shedloads more money to change over

The really important parts have been untouched,i.e bore and stroke dimensions,combustion chamber shapes,valve sizes and tuning,intake and exaust tuning,etc,etc

In theory all these changes ('standard' engine config. + longer lasting engines) will save serious money in the long run but due to max's constant meddling with constant changes every year it's working out to just the opposite.

Now how is it we all could have guessed that's how things would work with max in charge....

[Kicking-back]

RWC, has Max stolen your wife or something?

Every post I see from you is either a direct attack on him, or a thinly-vieled bash of him.

[gttouring]

well max is meddling- alot in every way- why?

well for reliability the inherent balance of a v8 should be better, a V12 better yet
the V10 were balanced on knife edges, as V6's would be vibrations galore.
but at this level i suppose they would figure out this mess.
i love the DFV andn the XFE the sounds they make are just glorious, a v8 is andalways will be a legendary place to start a with motor, so even shrieking at 19K the F1 v8's will be special and costs will not go down, if only in less total parts and time building consumed, and this will only be at the 2 extra cylinders per build..rods, valves, adjusting.
but this will be a seriously monumental change over for alll the engine builders, and chassis manufacturers, having to retune, remap, re fit and rear gear potentially eveything.
a cheaper solution would be keeping the v10's for now installing a V8 rule in 3 years time and current engine would get a rev cap until then with a development freeze.
so te cost over the next 3 years is spread out for the v8's as a schedule can be put in place, and it can be worked out proper... of course speed costs money, hw fast do you want to go?
ferrari, BMW,Mercedes, Honda, Renault will be on top regardless, and perhaps with the v8's coming toyota maysurprise a few...these guys do have all the money in the world

[Marbot]

That's all very well gttouring but you didn't answer the question,has Max stolen your wife.(i like the word stolen instead of kidnapped,kicking back )....sorry gttouring it's not your wife thats gone missing,but watch out Max is about.

[Snrub]

I really don't think any independant engine builders will get involved. They simply don't have the money to do that kind of development to be competitive and none of the small teams can pay them enough to cover their costs.

[RWC]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

RWC, has Max stolen your wife or something?

Every post I see from you is either a direct attack on him, or a thinly-vieled bash of him.

Thinly veiled?! I'll have to be sure i'm less ambiguous then

Max (along with bernie) has stolen f1 and make an utter mockery of it.Is that reason enough to despise the man?
There are several massive problems in f1 but these two jokers are at the top of the list
I make no appologies at all

[Kicking-back]

But you keep on saying that, without being specific about what it is they've done that you don't like, or explaining what the "massive problems" are.

[slicktoast]

Let's see. 3 liters divided by 10 = .3 liters per cylinder. Take two cylinders away (.3 x 2 = .6) and get a 2.4 liter! It might be simplistic but most of the new engines already exist. It will slow the cars down for a few seasons and then we'll get 1.8 liter V6s.