MSA "Blue Book" requirements for long distance racing

[Piglet]

I'm posting this for information purposes only as it is clear that a large number of marshals don't have access to the Blue Book, I'm also deliberatly starting a new thread so as not to hijack Julian's existing thread.

I haven't checked the rest of the Blue Book for anything else that might also apply so I make no guarantee that there aren't other provisions that apply....

15. REQUIREMENTS FOR LONG
DISTANCE OR BAD WEATHER RACING

15.1 omitted as not relevant to this discussion.

15.2. Marshals
15.2.1. Must be relieved if period of continuous
racing exceeds six hours.
15.2.2. For any period over six hours,
marshals should operate in shifts of four
hours maximum with one shift on and two
off duty.
15.2.3. Marshals off duty awaiting a further on
duty spell should be provided with at least one
hot meal, kept dry, comfortable, and if
appropriate, provided with warm rest
accommodation with individual sleeping
facilities for at least six hours out of their off
duty period. Transport must be provided for
marshals if it is necessary to walk more than
500m in order to reach rest and refreshment
facilities.

15.3. Lighting at Night
15.3.1. An area of the track including the
start and finish line, appropriate to the
speed of competing cars at this point, to
be lit to an intensity sufficient to enable
the positive identification of each competing
car.
15.3.2. For safety there must be a build up to
and run down from the area of maximum
intensity of lighting.
15.3.3. In the area of maximum intensity, the
lighting to be at least equal to that of the
headlamps of competing cars.
15.3.4. All lighting installations to be such as to
avoid dazzle.
15.3.5. The pit area and individual pits to be lit
sufficiently to enable control and replenishment
to proceed.
15.3.6. All offices to be adequately lit.
15.3.7. The paddock area to be lit sufficiently
to enable safe movement and dispersal.
15.3.8. Spectator walkways, car parks, etc.,
to be lit to enable safe movement and
dispersal.
15.3.9. The track itself to be identified by
reflecting markers placed at intervals of 3m
from the 60m point before all corners to the
end of the corner. Corner warning boards to
carry reflecting marking.
15.3.10. All ambulances, break-down vehicles
and official cars to be identified by a reflective
strip at the rear and a blue or yellow flashing
beacon.
15.3.11. All flag marshals to have available two
yellow signal lights (one as standby). These
lights to have a control giving steady or
interrupted lighting.
15.3.12. The Clerk of the Course to have
available a red signal light.
15.3.13. Each Observer to be equipped with
two hand lamps unless at a point with
permanent lighting.
15.3.14. Scrutineers to be provided with full
lighting for the inspection of vehicles.
15.3.15. Timekeepers to be provided with
suitable lighting.
15.3.16. Competing cars to have direction
indicator lights in working order.
15.3.17. Competitors’ identification numbers
to be displayed in four places: on the forward,
rear and each side of the car. The rear number
to be adequately illuminated and displayed on
a flat vertical surface.
15.3.18. The lighting installation and other
equipment to be available in working order for
inspection by the MSA at least one month
before the date of the event. If not approved at
this time, any further requirements to be
completed and approved not less than two
weeks before the event.
15.4. Practice. All competitors must be
allowed at least one hour’s practice in the
same conditions of light as will apply in the
race. Should the event include a period during
the hours of darkness, at least half hour of
practice shall be at night.

[brickkicker]

Dont forget that HSE rules also apply due to the lenght of time you are there, so that needs to be taken into account.

[Alan Green]

I'm sorry, but add "sense of humour", "patience" and "common sense" to the list. It's the 1st 24hr race at Silverstone for many years, and the first for the EERC. I'm sure things will go wrong, and some people will use it as an excuse to have a go. But please give it a fair chance.

As anyone who has done a 2CV 24hr will tell you it's the atmosphere and 'uniqueness' of the event that matters, rather than if someone's done a 6hr 10minute shift when they should only do 6hrs.

Not even going to bother looking what HSE has to say about the matter (and don't bother posting it here)

FUN in motorsport. INVOLVED in motorsport. ENTHUSIASTIC about motorsport - not a bad motto for marshals to think about, because that's why I do it. End of.

Al.

[scorch]

It's not the 1st race for many years, i believe it's the first race ever.

[ss_collins]

not sure that before snet the willhire wasn't at stone?

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

I'm sorry, but add "sense of humour", "patience" and "common sense" to the list. It's the 1st 24hr race at Silverstone for many years, and the first for the EERC. I'm sure things will go wrong, and some people will use it as an excuse to have a go. But please give it a fair chance.

As anyone who has done a 2CV 24hr will tell you it's the atmosphere and 'uniqueness' of the event that matters, rather than if someone's done a 6hr 10minute shift when they should only do 6hrs.

Not even going to bother looking what HSE has to say about the matter (and don't bother posting it here)

FUN in motorsport. INVOLVED in motorsport. ENTHUSIASTIC about motorsport - not a bad motto for marshals to think about, because that's why I do it. End of.

Al.

Alan, I'm not sure if you're aiming that at me or someone else but to be honest I find the final paragraph of your post quite irritating (that's actually an understatement). To suggest that those of us who marshal don't have fun, get involved and be enthusiastic is a joke. What makes us turn out weekend after weekend then? Of course we all do those things and you'll find that the majority of us have patience, common sense and a sense of humour in droves.

Can we please get away from the idea that it's not possible to have a sensible discussion about these things without it becoming a slanging match about events, clubs and organisers. Surely these are topics worth discussion in a sensible manner not just in the form of "if you want it to work you'll turn up?? We've all kept turning up for years and things aren't getting any better, we're getting fewer and fewer marshals which means the viability of events such as these is getting more and more borderline. Let's deal with the issues not just sweep them under the carpet behind a raft of insults to those who have a difference of opinion.

And, just so you know I've done five 24 hours races, at Spa and at Snetterton in the last four years.

Also (I'm nearly done!!) the difference between 6 hrs and 6 hrs ten minutes is potentially huge - a tired person is not a competent person whether you're talking about a marshal, a doctor or a lorry driver.

Please let's have sensible discussions about this stuff and listen to others opinions not just shoot them down.

[Alan Green]

Originally Posted by Piglet

Alan, I'm not sure if you're aiming that at me

Certainly not, and if that's how it came across I apologise. I thought the thread was appearing to give ammunition to the people who seem to be anti-organising clubs at the moment

Originally Posted by Piglet

Of course we all do those things and you'll find that the majority of us have patience, common sense and a sense of humour in droves.

Again, something not always in evidence on this forum at the moment. Just jaded and disappointed as I would love to get new people into marshalling if I knew how, but one look through the threads on here at the moment doesn't help.

Apologies again,
Al.

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

FUN in motorsport. INVOLVED in motorsport. ENTHUSIASTIC about motorsport - not a bad motto for marshals to think about, because that's why I do it. End of.

Al.

I like that, you should copyright it, this time next year you'll be rich!!!

Have to agree about H&S, Comon sense is a far better way to stay alive, as you said, who says you wont be totally knackered after 4 and a half hours, or like me, you can keep going all day and night!
To say 6 hours just seems like a nice round number that some office bod came up with, let (comon)sense prevail!!

Lee

[924nut]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

like me, you can keep going all day and night!
To say 6 hours just seems like a nice round number that some office bod came up with, let (comon)sense prevail!!

Lee

Its attitudes like that that will cause an accident - if you know your motorsport history then think of Pierre Levegh and think again about trying to do a 24hr without a break.

No offence meant but those rules are for your safety.

[Ian Sowman]

I suspect CombeMarshal was exaggerating to make a point...

[CombeMarshal]

Think you should read it again, but this time take your serious hat off.

And don't tell me about H&S, I'm in the construction industry it is a real nightmare, most of there rules are unpracticle and thought about by someone in an office and has had no real experience on site, accidents are caused by stupidity not comon sense

And surely Pierre Levegh reinforces my case even more, it happend in the second hour not the 6th

Now, I 'll stop calling you shirley, Lee

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

I suspect CombeMarshal was exaggerating to make a point...

You got the nail on the head with that one!!

Lee

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by CombeMarshal

accidents are caused by stupidity not comon sense

Gonna quote myself now!!!

yeah I know, even with all the comon sense in the world, I know, accidents can, and do still happen

Lee

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

Certainly not, and if that's how it came across I apologise. I thought the thread was appearing to give ammunition to the people who seem to be anti-organising clubs at the moment



Again, something not always in evidence on this forum at the moment. Just jaded and disappointed as I would love to get new people into marshalling if I knew how, but one look through the threads on here at the moment doesn't help.

Apologies again,
Al.

No problem, I think we're all disapointed at the things that have panned out this year.

[Terry Scannell]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

not sure that before snet the willhire wasn't at stone?

Willhire was and still is (although now part of the Arriva Group) a Vehicle Rental Company based in East Anglia with it's original HQ only a few miles from Snet at Barton Mills on the A11 and all the original Willhire 24hr Meetings were only held at Snetterton and run by the BRSCC-EA centre.

Snett certainly has the most experience in the UK of running 24hr Willhire & 2CV races and night races for the Avon Tour of Britain series of events, BTCC night races and hopefully in November a Britcar nightrace.

Even Mr. Tucker has stated recently that the spiritual home of the Willhire is and always will be Snett.

I would also suggest that when considering light signals for silverstone someone considers using the same system used earlier this year at the BARC Snet 2CV's 24hr, with the provision of flashing or stationary yellow lights combined with a red if required at flag points, with the addition of the led style light sabre sticks which provided marshals with the ability to show a waved yellow and which also contained a torch and an electronic whistle to alert other posts or marshals trackside. Certainly all the drivers seemed to be very complimentary of the combined nighttime "flagging" light system.

[peter195001]

the "main" reason acording to mr tucker that is he can "sell" the idea of 24hr race to drivers to race at silverstone than perhaps racing elsewhere


peter

24hr marshall (lemans & snett (2cv & real whillhire))

[stevebrown]

Originally Posted by ss_collins

not sure that before snet the willhire wasn't at stone?

As Terry said the Willhire was always at Snet. The first in 1980.
I have a suggestion, as Snet will always be the spiritual home of 24hr racing in Britain why not alternate future races between Snet & Silverstone?

Steve B

[Alan Green]

Its a 5 year deal between EERC & Silverstone IIRC

Al

[thepits!]

Originally Posted by Piglet

I'm posting this for information purposes only as it is clear that a large number of marshals don't have access to the Blue Book.

As a matter of interest, now the MSA have updated their website - www.msauk.org - it is possible for ALL registered officials, including marshals, to register for the site, and this will then give them access to all the 'Books' (Blue, Red, Gold, etc...) chapter by chapter as downloadable PDF's.


(so now everybody can be lawyers!)

[Terry Scannell]

Originally Posted by Alan Green

Its a 5 year deal between EERC & Silverstone IIRC

Al

With the improvements that we have seen at Snet over the past two years since JP's ownership and with some of the future plans for the circuit don't be surprised to see it back at the spiritual home when the 5 year period is complete! It has only been loaned to Silverstone!!

[Piglet]

Originally Posted by thepits!

(so now everybody can be lawyers!)

Now come on, we can't all be lawyers - who would make the decisions?

[Grandslammer]

Originally Posted by thepits!

As a matter of interest, now the MSA have updated their website - www.msauk.org - it is possible for ALL registered officials, including marshals, to register for the site, and this will then give them access to all the 'Books' (Blue, Red, Gold, etc...) chapter by chapter as downloadable PDF's.

Anyone actually been able to log-in?.I've tried several times to no avail Computer says NO,perhaps I don't exist!

[bigal]

CombeMarshal - I imagine 924nut was thinking of the year Pierre Levegh tried to drive the whole 24 hours himself, rather than 1955. If I remember correctly, the story is that he missed a gear change and damaged his engine after over 20 hours at the wheel.

[bigal]

Grandslammer - I can't access the MSA site members' area either. Perhaps, as marshals with our details having been passed on by our club, they don't have our dates of birth? Anybody know the best way to sort this out?

[Alan Green]

I thought it was MSA 'full' license holders only (as in chiefs, clerks, drivers) for the members area of their website?

Al.