[WTCC] WTCC 2009: News, Rumours, Entries...

[stedevil]

Straight from the regs:

Eligibility for the Independent Drivers’ Trophy will be exclusively decided by KSO, taking into consideration
the following criteria:
• Team’s CV and records
• Driver’s CV and records
• Car’s technical characteristics
Drivers who compete for teams representing Manufacturers’ Importers and/or National Dealers may be
declared eligible to score points in the trophy, but not to compete for the prize money.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

It's not about experience, it's about factory support or not, and Felix has no factory support. It depends on if the manufacturer is signed in for the Constructors' championship or not, and there's no evidence that Honda will enter the Constructors'.

Yep it is also, see Stedevils post and the fact that Coronel hasn't been allowed to go for the Indy's championship the past years.

[FIRE]

Is the 2nd Wiechers car confirmed? I think they said they have the intention to enter a 2nd car.

Entrylist isn't looking bad.

[Martin Haven]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

Yep it is also, see Stedevils post and the fact that Coronel hasn't been allowed to go for the Indy's championship the past years.

Tom was banned from contesting the Indy Trophy again, after winning it...

Somehow, Stefano D'Aste was allowed to try a second time, but had a points penalty applied at the start of the season...

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Martin Haven

Somehow, Stefano D'Aste was allowed to try a second time, but had a points penalty applied at the start of the season...

Yeah. I think the deal was since him only winning it by 2 points over Rangoni in 2007 he could stay in indy category if he started with -2 points in 2008. I think you told me that

[helterskelter]

It's pretty different a situation... Coronel dominated the indies' trophy because of his talent and also because of the direct support of Seat Holland. On the other hand, I can tell you about Seat Sport Italia: Roberto Colciago is a great driver, 2 times Stcc champion and former Etcc and Wtcc racer, and yet he contested the indies and he was directly supported by Seat Sport Italia, so he was an actual works driver, he got paid to race.
Hernandez became a works driver so nobody even wondered if he could contest the indies or not. d'Aste was allowed to race because he'd won with a small margin: also, while Coronel had a support from Seat, after all, even if not fully works, d'Aste had no chance to be a works driver at all.
I think it's a complicated situation, but I would put Felix in the indies: if you think about it, Porteiro has no experience with front wheel drive cars, Campos has never participated in a touring car championship and after all the car was not so good, except on certain tracks, during the last few races in 2008.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

...I would put Felix in the indies: if you think about it, Porteiro has no experience with front wheel drive cars, Campos has never participated in a touring car championship...

That would be my conclusion as well. I guess we will see if KSO sees it the same way or not.

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

It's pretty different a situation... Coronel dominated the indies' trophy because of his talent and also because of the direct support of Seat Holland. On the other hand, I can tell you about Seat Sport Italia: Roberto Colciago is a great driver, 2 times Stcc champion and former Etcc and Wtcc racer, and yet he contested the indies and he was directly supported by Seat Sport Italia, so he was an actual works driver, he got paid to race.

Local support doesn't mean that he's a works driver. Coronel's seat is paid for by Seat Holland, but all that comes with that is a lot of mandatory press events and a Seat NL Marketing manager on location. Works support is direct support from the Spanish factory, and not a PR Manager from your local distributor on your side

[Dead-Eye]

Why is Campos going into Indy anyway? N-Tech wasn't, what's different about Campos?

[helterskelter]

Certainly a support from a local dealer means much more funds than a private driver can have, which means more testing and so on. Anyway I never said he's an actual works driver, I'd call him semi-works or semi-private, either way it sounds good

I think N Technology signed in with a promise from Honda that they'd get funds from the jap manufacturer, which never happened to be, as far as I know. So Honda is not going to be involved as a manufacturer, and Campos is running the cars by himself, at least in 2009. Anyway, with all the respect Campos has to have because of his pedigree in formulae and so on, I think that, like everyone on earth, he'll need some time to understand a touring car, he'll hardly be competitive straight away. If he does, he is a genius, which could easily be, though!

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Certainly a support from a local dealer means much more funds than a private driver can have, which means more testing and so on. Anyway I never said he's an actual works driver, I'd call him semi-works or semi-private, either way it sounds good

Thats nonsense. Seat Holland is only one sponsor, if you look at Coronels car there are plenty of other sponsors which are his own, he can't afford that Seat (pun intended) just on on Seat Hollands money. I'd even go as far that for example Corthals with his immense Monroe backing or Team Engstler with their Liqui Moli package have at least the funds Coronel has, or even more perhaps.

[werner]

How much would Seat Liechtenstein be able to pay if a talented Liechtensteinter tried to join the WTCC?

[stedevil]

Do they sell cheap cars like Seats in Liechtenstein? :P

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Certainly a support from a local dealer means much more funds than a private driver can have, which means more testing and so on.

Can you explain this a bit further? Like Bramzel I think this is nonsense.

When Coronel drove for GR Asia they did little to none testing. In contrast to the past they did some testing this year. It's true Coronel got some support from SEAT Sport in the past (e.g. free engine for the last few races in 2007). But was this because of the support from SEAT Holland or because SEAT Sport see in him a very talented driver? I think the last.

Originally Posted by helterskelter

Anyway I never said he's an actual works driver, I'd call him semi-works or semi-private, either way it sounds good

So Corthals is also semi-works (or semi-private )?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Coronel was banned from the independent's cup because he would've ran away with it. Right now the series arbitrarily determines who's independent or not to create a close championship. playV2('en/US/st/stdjsgdfd7stsydysosjsdygh7h3');playV2('en/UK/st/stdjsgdfd7stsydysosjsdygh7h3')It doesn't have to be that complicated; define in the rules who is a privateer and who is not.

[JorritVD]

Originally Posted by FIRE

But was this because of the support from SEAT Holland or because SEAT Sport see in him a very talented driver? I think the last.

I think because SEAT was in fight for the title, and they could need every help that was possible

[helterskelter]

As far as Coronel can see, he is a privateer. On the other hand, Seat Holland does give him a better support than an ordinary sponsor: it's about politics, not just about pure money. I think we all know that Seat Holland is now pushing for a Btcc entry for Coronel: do you think an ordinary sponsor would have had such a big influence on his choices?
I think that if Seat saw a talented driver in him (like they should have done) they'd have given him the chance to have a TDi. In fact, the whole Coronel situation doesn't make sense: he's just an unbelievably quick and experienced driver who was never given a complete chance to compete for the championship. Please note that Coronel also runs his own team in lower series and makes a living out of racing. You're right when you say Seat Holland is one of the sponsors, but the political weight, apart from the larger funds it provides, makes it a special sponsor. Simply, Coronel doesn't have a supersponsor like Monroe and Liqui Moly, cause he has support from Seat Holland and some others.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I think that if Seat saw a talented driver in him (like they should have done) they'd have given him the chance to have a TDi. In fact, the whole Coronel situation doesn't make sense: he's just an unbelievably quick and experienced driver who was never given a complete chance to compete for the championship.

My own personal conspirational theory is that Seat cut a deal with Coronel for 2008 which included him not getting a TDI. With the 5 works drivers all getting the TDI they really needed 1 really good driver to still drive the petrol to make sure they could deflect some of the TD is too good arguments from the opposition by pointing at Coronels performance.

[helterskelter]

My opinion is Seat Holland wasn't strong enough to indicate a driver: if you look at the drivers, the most important markets are represented. Rydell was always in good relationships with Seat and had driven for them before. Maybe Seat just did not want to invest in a sixth fully works car and therefore delegated Seat Holland to run him. Only works drivers are entitled to have the TDi, though, which is why Coronel didn't get a TDi, being a semi-privateer or semi-works, as I said before.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

I think we all know that Seat Holland is now pushing for a Btcc entry for Coronel: do you think an ordinary sponsor would have had such a big influence on his choices?

Yes, because if it means no racing (not enough budget for WTCC) or BTCC the choice is easy. I am sure Engstler would do the same if Liqui Moly wants BTCC instead of WTCC.

[helterskelter]

It'd be different. If Liqui Moly gives less money to Engstler, HE will CHOSE to do somthing different. Seat Holland is pushing for Btcc, which is different. As you said, even without Seat Holland Coronel would be able to race in Wtcc, but he'd lose his semi-works support. Seat Holland are pushing him towards another championship, they're not just reducing support...

[Bramzel]

Originally Posted by helterskelter

It'd be different. If Liqui Moly gives less money to Engstler, HE will CHOSE to do somthing different. Seat Holland is pushing for Btcc, which is different. As you said, even without Seat Holland Coronel would be able to race in Wtcc, but he'd lose his semi-works support. Seat Holland are pushing him towards another championship, they're not just reducing support...

It's not different at all. To use the Engstler example again; If Liqui Moly wants to do BTCC, Engstler has 2 options. Go with them or tell them goodbye. It's the exact same for Coronel. He can stay in WTCC, but then he needs to find replacements funds for the Seat Holland budget. Or he can just go along with them and do BTCC and have a relaxed off-season

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by Bramzel

It's not different at all. To use the Engstler example again; If Liqui Moly wants to do BTCC, Engstler has 2 options. Go with them or tell them goodbye. It's the exact same for Coronel. He can stay in WTCC, but then he needs to find replacements funds for the Seat Holland budget. Or he can just go along with them and do BTCC and have a relaxed off-season

Exactly!

And Coronel having a relaxed off-season? He just did Dakar rally.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by FIRE

And Coronel having a relaxed off-season? He just did Dakar rally.

Hey, traveling to a warm place in the winter, sounds like a holiday trip to me

[helterskelter]

But the thing is: will Liqui Moly ever push for Btcc like a local dealer would?
I agree about the Dakar being a way to avoid the cold northern european winter