2010 Australian F3

[tech racing]

G'day all,
with the National F3 season about to commence here in Australia (march 6-7) does anyone have information on the series; regs - eligible cars, classes etc I have checked the F3 website here and it just states 'information coming soon', but that message has been there all last year as well. Their contact page also does not display - broken link!!

any help in contacting the Australian F3 Association/administrator would be appreciated as I would like to run an older car in a couple of selected rounds.

rgds
Dave

[HarvestMotorspt]

Check your pm's mate.

[Morris Dancer]

With the first round less than two weeks away there are just seven drivers listed on the official website. That's hardly encouraging.

The fact is that F3 - like Formula Holden/4000 and Formula Pacific/Mondial before it - will never be a viable formula in Australia. The cars aren't big enough, fast enough or loud enough to attract motorsport fans, who God bless 'em have only ever liked cars with a thumping big V8 under the bonnet.

Aussie openwheeler drivers and teams should take off their blinkers and reintroduce F5000 using the existing V8 Supercar engines in year-old GP2/F2/FRF3.5/A1GP chassis with control tyres. They'd have the right noise and have plenty of spectacle, but wouldn't suffer from the open-chequebook cost spiral that inevitably killed off F5000 in the early-1980s.

If more evidence is needed that a 'back to the future' approach is the answer, a huge field of old F5000s will be on this year's F1 AGP support program as a 'Tasman Revival' with races on Saturday and Sunday! What an indictment of the 'premier category' when it's overshadowed by a nostalgic look at one of the golden ages of Australian openwheeler racing.

[champcarman]

Not fast enough?

Like 8 seconds faster than the overly hyped V8 Supercars around Phillip Island or Eastern Creek!

Whilst I admit something bigger and noisier would be nice I think people like yourselves and the Australian racing media have done enough damage to Australian Open Wheel racing to consign any formula to failure.

Personally I think something like F Renault 3.5 would be ideal. The engines are Nissan V6 anyway.

But it won't happen so if the media and fans like us support and appreciate F3 then it can be better.

Personally I enjoy F3. I thought the Superprix at Sandown last year was one of the best motor races I saw all yera and I attend most V8 Rounds.

[cavvy]

2009 thread:
http://tentenths.com/forum/showthrea...114309&page=15

The category web site speaks for itself:
http://www.formula3.com.au/

Dont agree with Morris Dancer, I see the only hope for the Gold Coast event to survive is an alignment with Macau using the same F3 field topped up by our local field.

Do love F5000 too.

[HarvestMotorspt]

A great outcome for the series! Lets hope this brings more cars

http://www.formula3.com.au/news.asp?id=727

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

With the first round less than two weeks away there are just seven drivers listed on the official website. That's hardly encouraging.

The fact is that F3 - like Formula Holden/4000 and Formula Pacific/Mondial before it - will never be a viable formula in Australia. The cars aren't big enough, fast enough or loud enough to attract motorsport fans, who God bless 'em have only ever liked cars with a thumping big V8 under the bonnet.

Aussie openwheeler drivers and teams should take off their blinkers and reintroduce F5000 using the existing V8 Supercar engines in year-old GP2/F2/FRF3.5/A1GP chassis with control tyres. They'd have the right noise and have plenty of spectacle, but wouldn't suffer from the open-chequebook cost spiral that inevitably killed off F5000 in the early-1980s.

If more evidence is needed that a 'back to the future' approach is the answer, a huge field of old F5000s will be on this year's F1 AGP support program as a 'Tasman Revival' with races on Saturday and Sunday! What an indictment of the 'premier category' when it's overshadowed by a nostalgic look at one of the golden ages of Australian openwheeler racing.

Not sure how you see a "bigger car" as a cheaper alternative. F3 in Australia already does a pretty good job keeping the series costs down. Bigger, faster and louder normally mean costlier. F3 is also relative to international series for those few drivers who have ambitions outside Australia.
As for F5000, it is a great Formula which anyone from earlier era's will remember with great passion. It is so popular because the people driving them are "elder" drivers who now have the personal funds to go and play in something that they once envied. It has no relationship or apeal to young and up and coming drivers.
Formula Holden was in the vein of F5000, using F3000 chassis and it struggled and eventually failed.

[gomick]

Mitch Evans will win the title - hope we get 6 or 7 championship cars then another 6 or 7 national cars... Am i dreaming

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by gomick

Mitch Evans will win the title - hope we get 6 or 7 championship cars then another 6 or 7 national cars... Am i dreaming

Unfortunately yes, mate. Even a gridfull of F3s at every round wouldn't save the category, because not enough Australian race fans like them.

I love watching small openwheelers (although the higher-revving ANF2 cars sounded better than the droning F3s), but this isn't about what hardcore enthusiasts like us want - it's about what is commercially viable.

F5000 is the only openwheeler category that ever drew decent crowds in Australia after the F1 teams' last Tasman Series visit in 1969. It flourished until the mid-1970s, when the costs spiralled out of control.

No small or medium-bore category can compare to F5000's noise and spectacle, and the costs can be controlled by using a standard chassis and running gear, limited aero adjustments (I'd fling the wings altogether, but that's another thread!), V8 Supercars' existing electronics and a control tyre.

F3's proponents are flogging a dead horse!

[Mak]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

Unfortunately yes, mate. Even a gridfull of F3s at every round wouldn't save the category, because not enough Australian race fans like them.

I love watching small openwheelers (although the higher-revving ANF2 cars sounded better than the droning F3s), but this isn't about what hardcore enthusiasts like us want - it's about what is commercially viable.

F5000 is the only openwheeler category that ever drew decent crowds in Australia after the F1 teams' last Tasman Series visit in 1969. It flourished until the mid-1970s, when the costs spiralled out of control.

No small or medium-bore category can compare to F5000's noise and spectacle, and the costs can be controlled by using a standard chassis and running gear, limited aero adjustments (I'd fling the wings altogether, but that's another thread!), V8 Supercars' existing electronics and a control tyre.

F3's proponents are flogging a dead horse!

No junior mainstream single seater series is commercially viable, whether big or small, anywhere.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

The cars aren't big enough, fast enough or loud enough to attract motorsport fans, who God bless 'em have only ever liked cars with a thumping big V8 under the bonnet.

Why don't Australian motor sport fans like F3 then? That doesn't really make sense. If they are motor sport fans, they certainly should like F3! Its one of the most respected forms of single-seaters around the world and has been for decades. And you make them sound like little go-karts- for a start they are fast enough, F3 cars can wipe the floor with most other forms of racing cars in terms of lap times anyway. IMO watching F3 in Britain is quite a spectacle! I spectate at Euroboss meetings which have some of the noisiest cars in the world, but I prefer watching F3.

[NaBUru38]

What do crowds have to do with F3? Isn't the point of it to develop drivers who will later fill the top series (V8SA in this case)?

[Mak]

Originally Posted by runshaw

Why don't Australian motor sport fans like F3 then? That doesn't really make sense. If they are motor sport fans, they certainly should like F3! Its one of the most respected forms of single-seaters around the world and has been for decades. And you make them sound like little go-karts- for a start they are fast enough, F3 cars can wipe the floor with most other forms of racing cars in terms of lap times anyway. IMO watching F3 in Britain is quite a spectacle! I spectate at Euroboss meetings which have some of the noisiest cars in the world, but I prefer watching F3.

Why don't they like them in UK, or any where. They don't draw in crowds, just die hard motorsport fans. Oz also has less population and more things to do on a weekend for the general population. I think F3 are great cars, but they are boring to watch.

[runshaw]

Originally Posted by Mak

I think F3 are great cars, but they are boring to watch.

I disagree completely. I have seen epic races at Oulton Park and Silverstone, as well as highly entertaining ones at Croft and Donington. And NaBUru38- what do you mean by 'what do crowds have to do with F3'? Motor sport is there to be watched and be entertained on a Sunday afternoon and see who is the best, or am I mistaken after all these years?!

[NaBUru38]

runshaw, the F3 Sudamericana is a co-feature category in my country's Grand Prix of Piriápolis, but that's because the other one is our Superturismo, which is infinitely slower than true Supertouring and Super 2000. In countries with powerful tin-topped series, I expect F3 races to support them.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

What do crowds have to do with F3? Isn't the point of it to develop drivers who will later fill the top series (V8SA in this case)?

Formula 3 might be a ‘junior development’ category in a worldwide context, but it's Australia’s premier openwheel formula (‘Australian National Formula One’ to use the presumptuous old CAMS term!).

It's also the category used to determine the annual CAMS 'Gold Star' awarded to Australian's champion driver (except in 1978 , when Kiwi Graham McRae somehow snitched it!).

That means it should have at least equal – if not superior – status to every other category, V8 Supercars included.

It should be commercially viable (ie. able to headline a national open race meeting and draw an appropriate crowd through the turnstiles).

The Gold Star winner certainly hasn't been Australia's champion driver since John Bowe won it twice in his Formula Mondial (nee Pacific/Atlantic) Ralt RT4, back in 1984-5.

Since then, paltry fields of ageing chassis driven by aspiring youngsters and superannuated veterans have sunk the Australian Drivers’ Championship to a depth only comparable to that plumbed by the Australian Open Tennis Championships from 1976-82.

Despite the admirable optimism of F3’s Australian proponents, the category – like Formula Holden/4000 from 1988-2004 – hasn’t delivered the goods.

The only openwheelers that ever survived on their own merits (ie. without the attraction of holidaying Formula 1 stars driving them) were the F5000s of the 1970s.

Like most categories of the era F5000 outpriced itself, but with modern cost-saving measures it could breathe life into the corpse of Australian top-level openwheeler racing.

A successful F5000 would actually boost the junior development category – preferably a locally based formula* – by giving the country’s up-and-coming openwheeler drivers a career path other than into V8 Supercars.

Not that there’s anything wrong with being a V8 Supercar driver ...

F3 in Australia – R.I.P. ASAP.

F5000 in Australia – bring it on ASAP!


* Let’s not have any more of the “Australia must have an internationally recognised openwheeler category” mantra. A few days’ testing is all that a good driver needs to adapt to an equivalent formula car – or even the next level one, as Daniel Erickson proved by stepping up from Formula Ford into a ‘slicks and wings’ US Formula Star Mazda and lapping at almost record pace last December (http://www.demotorsport.com.au/03-12...est-day-3.html).

A formula restricted to cost-controlled engines sourced from cars sold in the home market would also divert Australian dollars from overseas race engine builders to local ones, and open up the possibility of support by local car companies.

[NaBUru38]

It seems to me that only the V8SA have the resources could create such a formula series and fill that premier role that F3 simlpy can't.

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

It seems to me that only the V8SA have the resources could create such a formula series and fill that premier role that F3 simlpy can't.

Not necessarily. It just requires a promoter with the vision and business skills to turn a dream into reality. There's no shortage of those people in Australia!

The challenges facing the F3 teams are to recognise that they're in a dead-end street, and then to find a more successful solution before CAMS pulls the pin on yet another unsuccessful 'Gold Star' category.

[flat change]

Morris Dancer . The alarm clock is going off its time to wake up to the fact it is 2010 and 1970's technology will not work .
To create an Australiana formula is a pipe dream. there is no promoter who will do it and the teams have no money to do it and drivers wont race hybrid crap they are a bit smarter than that.

Please go back to sleep and dream about the days of yore when good drivers were maimed and killed driving your wonderful F5000's and now old men give spirited demonstrations in them under the guise of racing.

Let the 21st Century get on with what it is doing.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by flat change

Morris Dancer . The alarm clock is going off its time to wake up to the fact it is 2010 and 1970's technology will not work .
To create an Australiana formula is a pipe dream. there is no promoter who will do it and the teams have no money to do it and drivers wont race hybrid crap they are a bit smarter than that.

Please go back to sleep and dream about the days of yore when good drivers were maimed and killed driving your wonderful F5000's and now old men give spirited demonstrations in them under the guise of racing.

Let the 21st Century get on with what it is doing.

Huh?

There is no reason why there cannot be a modern updated F5000 type series with simple and safe equipment along with a loud V8.

F3 is fine for training wheels but only appeals to the most hardcore motorsport enthusiasts.

[GTRMagic]

Originally Posted by Morris Dancer

Not necessarily. It just requires a promoter with the vision and business skills to turn a dream into reality. There's no shortage of those people in Australia!

The challenges facing the F3 teams are to recognise that they're in a dead-end street, and then to find a more successful solution before CAMS pulls the pin on yet another unsuccessful 'Gold Star' category.

The concept you describe is great, and there are a number of team owners who have been actively contributing, financially, administratively & morally, to maintaining the series, so their businesses will have somewhere to participate

But what happens when these patrons lose interest?

The series appears not to be commercially viable without the significant influence and input of these team owners. So if one of them leaves the nest, the series is in trouble.

As if only having 7 'National' cars runnings isnt already a sign of this!

This isnt meant to be a doomsdayer post, but a way to contrast the F3 series with ones such as PROCAR Australia & TOCA Australia, each filled with international equipment, local drivers and the like.. and propped up in a serious way by Mr Palmer & Mr Morris, in series management & providing a number of cars in the series.

What's happening on the category management front? There is noise around that at least one group wants to lessen their commitment & exposure...

[Richard Craill]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

What's happening on the category management front? There is noise around that at least one group wants to lessen their commitment & exposure...

GTR, not sure who you are hearing said 'noise' from but I would try to tune out the static if I were you. There is only one 'group' in Formula 3 racing, and that is the current board. There is also a future directions committee driven by three of the board members and one other long time competitor who are working to establish a new structure and commercial base on which to grow F3 in Australia.

I would like to state here that there are no factions pulling either way or anythiung of the ilk - just a group of very passionate fans of 'wings and slicks' racing all trying their very best to build the category.

I would also like to add that CAMS have been very supportive of the way the series is working hard to rebuild and grow. They understand the series' current position and are working with the manegement to ensure a viable future for the category.

I know of two meetings held in the past week that open up new possibilities for the category to ensure it's survival and growth.

No, we are not particularly thrilled to have a small grid at Wakefield. Yes we are frustrated that we did not, for whatever reason, carry on our solid momentum from the final three rounds of last year (where we averaged 13-15 cars after starting the year with 6 at Wakefield, remember..).

However we are not in a dead-end street... And we are all working to ensure we stay far from it.

[tech racing]

I for one would like to say that I watched the National F3 round at Oran Park over the two days and thought it was great racing as did my 10 year old son who just loves single seat open wheel motor sport!!

It is a shame that the grid is small for Wakefield but we will still make the drive to watch on Sunday! and does anyone know if Mitch Evans is racing on the weekend in light of the age restriction imposed by the incompetent and short sighted NSW Govt!!!

[Morris Dancer]

Originally Posted by flat change

Morris Dancer . The alarm clock is going off its time to wake up to the fact it is 2010 and 1970's technology will not work .
To create an Australiana formula is a pipe dream. there is no promoter who will do it and the teams have no money to do it and drivers wont race hybrid crap they are a bit smarter than that.

Please go back to sleep and dream about the days of yore when good drivers were maimed and killed driving your wonderful F5000's and now old men give spirited demonstrations in them under the guise of racing.

Let the 21st Century get on with what it is doing.

You overlook the fact that two of the most successful categories in world motorsport - NASCAR and V8 Supercars - rely on "1970s technology".

Those who ignore history's mistakes are bound to repeat them, and I see history repeating itself with F3 in Australia.

It's time for the F3 dreamers to wake up. It's a 'development' category, no more.

If they're putting their faith in CAMS to come up with a miracle then they're even more misguided!

Why would any company pay thousands of dollars to put their signs on a car that's seen by hardly anyone at racetracks or on TV?

At least F5000 is a formula that most Australian race fans can relate to, and it offers a realistic alternative to tin-tops.

The F5000 'nostalgia races' (no-one's pretending that they're more than high-speed demonstration runs) prove that there's still a groundswell of support for the category, so imagine what a new generation of cars and drivers could do.

To paraphrase John Lennon: Give F5000 a chance!

[Richard Craill]

Originally Posted by tech racing

I for one would like to say that I watched the National F3 round at Oran Park over the two days and thought it was great racing as did my 10 year old son who just loves single seat open wheel motor sport!!

It is a shame that the grid is small for Wakefield but we will still make the drive to watch on Sunday! and does anyone know if Mitch Evans is racing on the weekend in light of the age restriction imposed by the incompetent and short sighted NSW Govt!!!

Mitch Evans is absolutely 100% racing as an exemption was able to be secured. Given his success and experience in the sport to date, despite his age, this is a nice dose of realistic thinking by the powers that be.

Tech Racing - great to hear you are coming down. Please drop by the F3 pits and check out the cars, we would be happy to have you there and show you and your son around and meet the drivers.

Look out for me and say G'Day - I'll be the fat bloke in an F3 shirt!

RC