[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

"They wanted the new rules to be DPi". Of course they do...because they already have the cars. When the PC teams were asked what they wanted, they all wanted to keep the PCs. Doesn't make it the right call - just suits the teams.

Not sure why they are "surprised" they were "ignored". I absolutely love IMSA, but the ACO have to build what they feel is right for their customers, not anyone elses. That's like PWC including IMSA teams in a discussion on the future, and then "ignoring" them when they all say "We'd love to bring our GTLM cars to the series!".

Love MP (and IMSA), but he does seem to beat the "IMSA is always the way" drum. Even managed to somehow claim GTLM And GTD were full IMSA products just because they gave them their own technical passes.

I'm perfectly fine with a different set of rules for LMP1 and DPi if that's how it goes. IMSA has been absolutely awesome the last year or so, and LMP1 is looking good too. Without unified rules, things are just fine.

I agree on MP, he's an IMSA and INDY guy. Those are usually presented in a good light compared to other series. If IMSA wants to stick with badge job lmp2's that's on them, but don't expect to get guys like Aston Martin, McLaren etc. running your top class with a DPi when they want the new 'GTP'.

[Rcz]

Been away for awhile.

So aco wants to do the Corvette DP thing, what about P2? IMSA DPi class is based the p2 cars so what about them?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Been away for awhile.

So aco wants to do the Corvette DP thing, what about P2? IMSA DPi class is based the p2 cars so what about them?

Nothing said about LMP2, but the current cars are only on year 2 of a 4 year cycle, so they're fine for a wee while.

[Rcz]

Maybe hardcore factories teams should use the hybrid/hypercar concept and privateers teams use the traditional lmp1 looking cars? What do you think?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Rcz

Maybe hardcore factories teams should use the hybrid/hypercar concept and privateers teams use the traditional lmp1 looking cars? What do you think?

Oreca and Kolles have both said they like the ability to produce a car that looks like road car. But I wouldn't be surprised if current privateer cars are grandfathered for a year.

We have seen the speed of the current P2's be quite fast at Le mans. I hope the new gen P1 cars will be significantly faster than those P2's.

[TzeiTzei]

I'm just wondering if the ACO are ****ing on the privateers again? They've just invested a lot of money into new machinery and now all those cars will become obsolete only after a year or two. And they are expected to invest into hybrids which are likely to be more expensive than the cars they have now?

I guess they just don't care about the privateers. They didn't care when Audi and Porsche were still racing. They had to give the little guys some incentive so that it would seem that Toyota are racing someone and the top class wouldn't be so embarrassing.

[Akrapovic]

Regarding privateers, I'm agreeing with Hindy. They're saying they want the cars for Le Mans 2020. So that means they have to be ready for the end of summer 2019. That's not happening. The rules are only being submitted to the WMSC in October 2018 at best (but will probably slip to December 2018).

They're basically worried that there will be no Toyota next year and they'll lose even more income, so rushing it through. But that might just have to be the hit they take. I'm presuming the LMP1s will be grandfathered in for a couple of years as well, like we've seen before.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Regarding privateers, I'm agreeing with Hindy. They're saying they want the cars for Le Mans 2020. So that means they have to be ready for the end of summer 2019. That's not happening. The rules are only being submitted to the WMSC in October 2018 at best (but will probably slip to December 2018).

They're basically worried that there will be no Toyota next year and they'll lose even more income, so rushing it through. But that might just have to be the hit they take. I'm presuming the LMP1s will be grandfathered in for a couple of years as well, like we've seen before.

I was wondering if it is a crossed message somewhere, and the new regs are supposed to start in the 2020-2021 season. That seems like a more reasonable lead time for developing an entirely new concept.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by joeb

I was wondering if it is a crossed message somewhere, and the new regs are supposed to start in the 2020-2021 season. That seems like a more reasonable lead time for developing an entirely new concept.

That was my original thought as well. Still a questionable ROI for privateers though — only two seasons (though three Le Mans). with the current generation of cars.

[TF110]

I bet they grandfather the private lmp1s. If not then I think we'll see customer cars since providing the hybrid is a mandatory thing for manufacturers.

[deggis]

“Wider Panel” of Manufacturers Targeted for Hypercar Regs

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/w...hypercar-regs/

However, the regulations have also been aimed for existing prototype constructors, such as ORECA, Dallara and Onroak Automotive for privateer car sales, as well as specialized boutique manufacturers.

..

“Dallara could make a deal with a company like Koenigsegg or Bugatti and make a car,” ACO sporting director Vincent Beaumesnil said.

..

Beaumesnil said each car will have a “free” design, which will not be confined to a particular road car, therefore allowing a wide range of concepts.

[TF110]

At least we can have some unique looking vehicles. I hope things open up a little bit from what is currently proposed, but it does seem like the cars will be attractive or at least distinctive.

[Articus]

It's clear that the elephant in the room and the most important thing to discuss is the common top category between IMSA and FIA WEC. What are the plans to address that?

As it stands, 25-30 million for these prototypes is an absolute no for most of the current DPI manufacturers. If ACO don't reduce by another 10 million, these classes will not be common and a lot of manufacturer interest will go away.

[TheMightyM]

Originally Posted by Articus

It's clear that the elephant in the room and the most important thing to discuss is the common top category between IMSA and FIA WEC. What are the plans to address that?

As it stands, 25-30 million for these prototypes is an absolute no for most of the current DPI manufacturers. If ACO don't reduce by another 10 million, these classes will not be common and a lot of manufacturer interest will go away.

You presume that there's some sort of requirement for the ACO/WEC and IMSA to share the same top prototype class. It's pretty clear that neither organization believes that — if the two sides come to a common definition great, if not, they'll do what they think is in their best interest. And at this point, it looks like they're going their separate ways.

There are a couple of other really important points though:

• How does going to a hypercar look impact GTE-Pro (and IMSA GTLM)? Are manufacturers really going to spend significant amounts of money running in both the LMP1-replacement hypercar and GTE? (Aston Martin and Ferrari I’m looking at you.)

• How do privateers fit into the hypercar LMP1 replacement?

• What about LMP2? Does it also become hypercar-like? If so, how does that impact GTE? What about the impact on IMSA? The next generation of LMP2 cars is still a few years off, but if I were running a GTE program (or considering starting one), I really would want to know how many GT-like prototype classes would be ahead of me on the grid at Le Mans…

[Articus]

Originally Posted by TheMightyM

You presume that there's some sort of requirement for the ACO/WEC and IMSA to share the same top prototype class. It's pretty clear that neither organization believes that — if the two sides come to a common definition great, if not, they'll do what they think is in their best interest. And at this point, it looks like they're going their separate ways.

I didn't say the classes would be common or that I was required. I said manufacturer interest is in a common class which currently will not happen because the ACO class cost 25-30 million. So what is the ACO thinking to address this? Their category will be bigger if they can make common with IMSA. Brands like Mclaren, Ford will enter in 2021 guaranteed if their is a common top class. Until

IMSA have nothing to lose by doing nothing. Their category is much cheaper to run. ACO on the other hand could gain manufacturer entries.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Articus

I didn't say the classes would be common or that I was required. I said manufacturer interest is in a common class which currently will not happen because the ACO class cost 25-30 million. So what is the ACO thinking to address this? Their category will be bigger if they can make common with IMSA. Brands like Mclaren, Ford will enter in 2021 guaranteed if their is a common top class. Until

IMSA have nothing to lose by doing nothing. Their category is much cheaper to run. ACO on the other hand could gain manufacturer entries.

I'm yet to see any evidence of this though. Porsche and Audi pulled out, and the sheer cost was one reason. Neither appeared to give consideration to a DPi. Nissan pulled out after trying to do it on the cheap, and the DPi is nothing more than a sticker and half blessing of the effort put in by ESM. Toyotas biggest market is the US, and they aren't running? BMW are twittering on about a Prototype, but they want hydrogen fuel.

Meanwhile, manufacturers in DPi don't have any interest in running in Europe. Acura barely exists outside North America, and the HPDs only ever made it into the hands of a few customers. Corvette don't want to run in the WEC because the market isn't big enough, so the chances of Cadillac making their way over is tiny. Mazda is the most likely, but even then this is being run by Mazda NA, and when they had a legal LMP they didn't come over either.

I dont' see this supposed manufacturer interest if I'm honest.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm yet to see any evidence of this though. Porsche and Audi pulled out, and the sheer cost was one reason. Neither appeared to give consideration to a DPi. Nissan pulled out after trying to do it on the cheap, and the DPi is nothing more than a sticker and half blessing of the effort put in by ESM. Toyotas biggest market is the US, and they aren't running? BMW are twittering on about a Prototype, but they want hydrogen fuel.



Meanwhile, manufacturers in DPi don't have any interest in running in Europe. Acura barely exists outside North America, and the HPDs only ever made it into the hands of a few customers. Corvette don't want to run in the WEC because the market isn't big enough, so the chances of Cadillac making their way over is tiny. Mazda is the most likely, but even then this is being run by Mazda NA, and when they had a legal LMP they didn't come over either.



I dont' see this supposed manufacturer interest if I'm honest.

Just find the latest Ford, Mclaren, and BMW interviews on the subject. Should be on S365, DailySport and the like. I will link them when I get a free moment to search.


You don't think there is interest in a common prototype that can race the North American market, and win LM 24 overall?

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Articus

Just find the latest Ford, Mclaren, and BMW interviews on the subject. Should be on S365, DailySport and the like. I will link them when I get a free moment to search.


You don't think there is interest in a common prototype that can race the North American market, and win LM 24 overall?

I don't think there's as big as interest as what is said. McLaren, BMW and Ford have all been talking about Prototypes for years. As has...everyone else who is ever asked. You've also got Ford talking about how they want electric hybrids, whilst IMSA doesn't want them because the budget required for every a small one is still miles off what IMSA teams can afford.

Meanwhile, the very article you've asked me to go find has Cadillac saying they're very pleased with the current DPi formula.

An IMSA DPi project would be a drop in the ocean for Toyota, yet they aren't there. It clearly doesn't fit what they want from a Prototype program. Similarly, what LMP1 offers doesn't fit what Mazda wants from a Prototype program. Different companies have different priorities.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I'm yet to see any evidence of this though. Porsche and Audi pulled out, and the sheer cost was one reason. Neither appeared to give consideration to a DPi. Nissan pulled out after trying to do it on the cheap, and the DPi is nothing more than a sticker and half blessing of the effort put in by ESM. Toyotas biggest market is the US, and they aren't running? BMW are twittering on about a Prototype, but they want hydrogen fuel.

Meanwhile, manufacturers in DPi don't have any interest in running in Europe. Acura barely exists outside North America, and the HPDs only ever made it into the hands of a few customers. Corvette don't want to run in the WEC because the market isn't big enough, so the chances of Cadillac making their way over is tiny. Mazda is the most likely, but even then this is being run by Mazda NA, and when they had a legal LMP they didn't come over either.

I dont' see this supposed manufacturer interest if I'm honest.

I think there's a little bit of generosity in your post. Audi and Porsche aren't hurting for money and they gladly spent twice as much as Toyota. They didn't leave because of the budget but because of the pr they want. They want to be seen being 'green' because dieselgate.

I think they're going to be using dpi for a while until lmp2 goes away or to another platform. The dpi guys are cheap and don't want to change what they feel is fine as-is. The only thing that I feel can persuade them is two or more manufacturers that want to run their 'GTP' at Daytona or Sebring or whatever. The price is not a big deal. They both run the same rules it would be worth the investment. I don't see it happening though because of GM,that's my take.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think there's a little bit of generosity in your post. Audi and Porsche aren't hurting for money and they gladly spent twice as much as Toyota. They didn't leave because of the budget but because of the pr they want. They want to be seen being 'green' because dieselgate.

I think they're going to be using dpi for a while until lmp2 goes away or to another platform. The dpi guys are cheap and don't want to change what they feel is fine as-is. The only thing that I feel can persuade them is two or more manufacturers that want to run their 'GTP' at Daytona or Sebring or whatever. The price is not a big deal. They both run the same rules it would be worth the investment. I don't see it happening though because of GM,that's my take.

For sure diesel gate was a massive part, but spending $450m a year that Audi was is not sustainable. As much as I loved that program, it got out of hand VERY quickly. They could've scaled it back and ran a small engined petrol alongside Formule E for a tiny price but didn't.

Porsche I don't think are as concerned with the green side of things. They could've run both if they wanted. And they've run an LMP2 before, and again, didn't show much interest in bringing it to Europe.

From a fans point of view, I don't see why they need to merged either. I love DPi and love IMSA, but I'm also happy it's different. Variety is fun.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

For sure diesel gate was a massive part, but spending $450m a year that Audi was is not sustainable. As much as I loved that program, it got out of hand VERY quickly. They could've scaled it back and ran a small engined petrol alongside Formule E for a tiny price but didn't.

Porsche I don't think are as concerned with the green side of things. They could've run both if they wanted. And they've run an LMP2 before, and again, didn't show much interest in bringing it to Europe.

From a fans point of view, I don't see why they need to merged either. I love DPi and love IMSA, but I'm also happy it's different. Variety is fun.

That's a pretty high figure. One of their (Audi) drivers said 200 million euros per year the other day on Twitter. I don't think dpi is a unique example of a lot of variety honestly. It looks like lmp with different headlights. The same thing as lmp2 and lmp1 right now. Them merging is to have the same type of series running to the same type of regulations. And for teams that are in the U.S. to be able to race for the win at Le Mans. That's kinda the point of combining If imsa feels like they don't need Le Mans then that's fine. But imo they're going to miss out on teams, cars, manufacturers that could elevate their series and the wec just for the sake of pride and unwillingness to invest. Not like they can't get Dallara or Oreca to do a chassis for them again. I just don't feel like their reasoning is sound so much as being stuck in their ways.

[chernaudi]

Even though some are expressing interest in a common top class rules formula, there does still seem to be disagreement between IMSA and the ACO over price points, and there's enough teams and manufacturers in IMSA that don't want to change over unless they see it as being worth it for that to happen.

Also, on price point vs ROI, Audi and Porsche did start to seem to becoming unhappy with ROI on the WEC as a whole combining with trying to re-energize/revitalize their brand because of dieselgate. Formula E and running GT cars is helping with that, also given that those formule are cheaper than LMP1 and GT3 especially has been a money maker for Audi Sport and Porsche Motorsport.

Even with dieselgate, VAG isn't exactly hurting for money, but I think a combination of PR revitalization due to dieselgate (which also stands to harm other carmakers even worse than VAG in terms of fines and lawsuits, such as Daimler and maybe PSA) and not getting the ROI from the WEC vs Le Mans alone caused the VAG pull out. They weren't tired of spending money, but tired of getting what they felt was little return on it vs doing stuff like Formula E and GT racing.

I heard on Velocity's coverage that even TMG's current budget is estimated to be $100-125 million USD. That's more money than I'd like to see a factory team to be spending. At max, I'd like to see that figure trimmed by $25-50 million or so, preferably more.

But the ACO isn't blameless in this. They wanted high technology, and Audi, Porsche, and Toyota obliged. They need to accept some responsibility for things getting out of control, just like how they let GT1 get similarly out of control about 20 years ago. If you want high tech and performance, fine, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

For DPI, car makers seem to be happy to take a LMP2 chassis, but their engine and body on it, and say job done for right now. Sadly, I don't see GM and Mazda pushing for hybrids, even relatively low power systems, or the new hyper car LMP1/GTP regs.

[FormulaFox]

How to make a common prototype class with the new P1 regulations...

IMSA can run the cars without hybrids.

Seriously, despite all the efforts on cost control, those hybrid system, and the associated mechanicals to make them drive the front wheels, are going be a VERY large part of the cost - drop them and the cost should drop considerably as well. It will still be a bit pricier than DPi, but if IMSA also keeps LMP2 for the lower-budget teams I'd bet it won't be that big of an issue.

You can bet any manufacturer who builds a car to these rules will be happy to provide such a version, as well.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

I don't think there's as big as interest as what is said. McLaren, BMW and Ford have all been talking about Prototypes for years. As has...everyone else who is ever asked. You've also got Ford talking about how they want electric hybrids, whilst IMSA doesn't want them because the budget required for every a small one is still miles off what IMSA teams can afford.

Meanwhile, the very article you've asked me to go find has Cadillac saying they're very pleased with the current DPi formula.

An IMSA DPi project would be a drop in the ocean for Toyota, yet they aren't there. It clearly doesn't fit what they want from a Prototype program. Similarly, what LMP1 offers doesn't fit what Mazda wants from a Prototype program. Different companies have different priorities.

I really didn't have an particular article in mind, sorry.
I'm a bit lost on where this is going. A couple points.

1) Brands like Acura don't want to race in the WEC. That much is true. But if ACO said DPI can race Le Mans 24 hours overall in 2019. Do you really think Acura would not show up? They would, for the same reasons that Corvette shows up in GTE...

2) Do you think Mazda would not show up with their DPI? Mazda don't race Le Mans overall because it's currently too expensive...not because it couldn't offer them anything.

Moving on from there...

3) All I said is that ACO should consider how to achieve the top category 10-15 million cheaper than they currently project. The ACO's vision is not set in stone. It's open to change.

Look at GTE. Ford, Porsche, BMW, and potentially Aston martin run joint programs in both markets because the regulations are common. Corvette literally shows up across the pond once in an entire year to race and try to win Le Mans and say that they beat all the European sportscar manufacturer to pump up the American customers. If the GT regulations were not common between IMSA and Le Mans. Corvette would not be there.....The same way Acura is currently not interested in LMP1.

Don't you see the parallel if there was a common affordable top prototype category and how it would boost both series?

[carbsmith]

We've seen plenty of manufacturers race in ACO classes in the US and not at Le Mans. Acura and Mazda specifically at that.