Lord Draysons comments regarding sportscar racing ten years from now

[Canada ALMS fan]

^Thank you. I hope to see them back.

Horndawg, Hydrogen fuel cells are not at all unrealistic IMO. BMW has had the system working for years. It's the infrastructure and concerns over public safety holding it back.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I will probably catch hell for it, but, I am a fan of fuel cells as the next power source. But I believe a liquid hydrogen derived from nuclear power the way to go! Nuclear generation is safe and waste disposal is much more regulated than the ecolgical nightmare that is going on with battery dumping around the world!


L.P.

I know in the US manufacturers have been testing Fuel Cell vehicles (Honda for one). What I don't know is what kind of noise they make? Can they be loud as a petrol, or more diesel like?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by joeb

I know in the US manufacturers have been testing Fuel Cell vehicles (Honda for one). What I don't know is what kind of noise they make? Can they be loud as a petrol, or more diesel like?

Quiet, very quite! But I am also a proponent of cga (computer generated audio) systems being installed for aural pleasure! And safety!




L.P.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by joeb

I know in the US manufacturers have been testing Fuel Cell vehicles (Honda for one). What I don't know is what kind of noise they make? Can they be loud as a petrol, or more diesel like?

60 minutes had a story on a GM car with a hydrogen fuel cell that was driving around a test track more than 10 years ago. Like Canada ALMS Fan has alluded to, people who don't know anything about it scare others so it never sees the light of day. Sort of like irradiated food. They could go a long way to ending starvation in the world but they don't do it because of pressure from activists.

DK

[JAG]

Top Gear on the Honda Clarity.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AUurBnLbJw

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

^Thank you. I hope to see them back.

Horndawg, Hydrogen fuel cells are not at all unrealistic IMO. BMW has had the system working for years. It's the infrastructure and concerns over public safety holding it back.

The infrastructure out here in the Western U.S. is growing, slowly, but growing. California has the largest pilot program but there are others also. There is also a transit bus program in Perth Australia that is being watched quite closely.




L.P.

[pdxracefan]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

The infrastructure out here in the Western U.S. is growing, slowly, but growing. California has the largest pilot program but there are others also. There is also a transit bus program in Perth Australia that is being watched quite closely.




L.P.

OMG. And then what, really big speakers/sound amps to imitate the sound? That is NOT why I follow and go to racing events, Dawg, I'm sorry. That is sick. Then what's left, just sit at home and listen to the home theatre? Grrr?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by pdxracefan

OMG. And then what, really big speakers/sound amps to imitate the sound? That is NOT why I follow and go to racing events, Dawg, I'm sorry. That is sick. Then what's left, just sit at home and listen to the home theatre? Grrr?

Well, should it ever come to pass that we have nothing but silent electric whirring race cars. I would much rather have them with sound, even if it means using artifically generated ones! So excuse me if I assaulted your senses by suggesting something in a hypothetical situation that would allow me, because I would still be a fan of racing, to enjoy it with as many of my senses as possible!!!


Or should they clip playing cards between the wheel spokes so we can here them coming?





L.P.

[TRuss]

I posted somewhere some while back that a hybrid would win LeMans by 2015 and a fully electric would have a shot by 2020. I still believe this to be true. I have mixed feelings about this though. I am an engine lover. Especially old nasty, smelly, noisy ones. Preferably with carbs or maybe mechanical fuel injection. I also understand the need for altenatives and even the drive to do something differently. I am not so willing to let go of my engines though. Some of you may have noticed that my stance has changed on this. I've always been one to support these moves because I want to make sure that cars contiue to go around tracks for my entertainment. Even if the sound wasn't there then maybe the speed would at least be. And I guess that I still do, but I am no longer so into it. At the same time I'm a bit of an archaic throw back, and that's why I will continue to tell you like I have before...Check out a vintage race. It's everything that ever made racing great all wrapped up into one amazing, noisy, race fuel adled glorious piece of gearhead...I mean petrolhead piece of heaven. I can't wait to get my '46 Dodge reliable enough to drive to the Mitty's. When that happens somebody may just have to check my pulse.

[Flat12-Aircool]

Originally Posted by TRuss

I posted somewhere some while back that a hybrid would win LeMans by 2015

Quite possible, but only if Hybrid in the sense of having some sort of KERS device.

Originally Posted by TRuss

and a fully electric would have a shot by 2020.

Simply not going to happen, at least not in that time frame and hopefully never.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

I will probably catch hell for it, but, I am a fan of fuel cells as the next power source. But I believe a liquid hydrogen derived from nuclear power the way to go! Nuclear generation is safe and waste disposal is much more regulated than the ecolgical nightmare that is going on with battery dumping around the world!


L.P.

Hmm.

I don't set too much store by Wikipedia but is can sometimes be a reasonable aggregator of information. It also tends to be loved by those who would like to see the demise of fossil fuels and big oil.

Fuels cells, especially Hydrogen based, don't seem to be in favour at the moment.

Even if they were I would be amazed if health and safety rules permitted any form of racing with a pressurised hydrogen tank or two in the mix. The containing vehicle would no doubt have to be somewhat massive for a strengthened tank. Think nuclear waste transportation container.

That said, of course, why would anyone bother to invest billions of currency in developing something that everyone knows can be obtained, by buying a low cost kit or even a DiY plan, from the internet and will enable us to run our vehicles on hydrogen produced from water with a bit of battery driven electrolysis. It's a complete no-brainer really. I'm surprised big oil and big energy are not out there in the market shutting these sites down or buying them up to keep them quiet.

Beyond that there is always the Steorn Orbo technology to consider.

In the meantime new sources of natural gas are coming on stream and may well alter the entire fuel/energy economic thinking for the near future thus changing the strategy we think is in place today. It is also entirely possible that the volume of raw materials required for some of the more promising technologies to work may be less than the world would require. So we move from an estimate peak production of one resource to an estimated maximum availability of another. Challenges ahead no matter which way you view things.

[TRuss]

Of course the car would have a KERS type of system. Ultra/Super capacitors have already been mentioned in this thread. And have already been done by Toyota on their Hybrid Super GT Supra that has won an endurance race, I think two years ago at least.

And it is completely possible by 2020 if the rules were to allow for it. And I'm not talking about breaks in the rules either. In the R/C plane hobby electrics have pretty taken over as their only down fall is initial investment. The performance is just about always superior to their nitro powered equivalents and it increases every year. Their low vibration is easy on airframes so much lighter structures can be built and the biggy...their quietness has saved several flying fields. The battery technology increases every year and it has been this way since about '04 when LiPo batteries, electronic speed controls and brushless motors came to the fore. Every year these components get better. Sometimes significantly so. And this is just at a hobby level. Just imagine the rate of development if a couple of major manfacturers get involved at LeMans or in an international series.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by grantp

That said, of course, why would anyone bother to invest billions of currency in developing something that everyone knows can be obtained, by buying a low cost kit or even a DiY plan, from the internet and will enable us to run our vehicles on hydrogen produced from water with a bit of battery driven electrolysis. It's a complete no-brainer really. I'm surprised big oil and big energy are not out there in the market shutting these sites down or buying them up to keep them quiet.

Why?
Why would they care even a bit about a technology that beyond wonder lab vehicles is horridly expensive, labor intensive and worthless in approximately one-half of this country?
LPG, and other bottled gas vehicles have existed for decades and reality of the systems have made them an exercise in futility or being different for the sake of being different.

[juicy sushi]

As someone else pointed out, electric cars aren't necessarily silent (the Trsla isn't). Given the way the technology is moving, this is the long-term future, although how we get there I lack the expertise to say. The reality is though that oil supplies are becoming inadequate as demand continues to increase. Manufacturers will want to showcase their technologies and either racing will adapt or die. The sounds will change, but the sport won't be silent.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Bob Riebe

Why?
Why would they care even a bit about a technology that beyond wonder lab vehicles is horridly expensive, labor intensive and worthless in approximately one-half of this country?
LPG, and other bottled gas vehicles have existed for decades and reality of the systems have made them an exercise in futility or being different for the sake of being different.

Hmm. But the internet is full of sites offering hydrogen from water for next to nothing ... surely they can't all be scam sites can they ....?

The reasons the BIG whatevers will car is that they know that if they can persuade 'government' that they are on to a good thing, but it's expensive, 'government' will find a tax source to fund the system development. Government can do this partly because they just can and partly because they will sell it to the masses as a solution that removes future fears (fears first raised by 'government' of course) and partly because it will 'create jobs'.

As for current alternatives - in the UK LPG and similar became quite popular, relatively, at one point when the economics almost got to the point of making sense for some high mileage drivers. Manufacturers like Vauxhall (GM) listed dual fuel vehicles rather than relying on after market fitment. But as with so many things like this the economic model is often rather volatile and subject to the vagaries of taxation and subsidy levels. And then it gets hit by changes in technology that either make the dual fuel concept more complex to deliver or shift the economic model based on improved MPG. Or, in the case of europe generally, a focus on diesel development (diesel cars having been popular for decades due to taxation policies, etc., in mainland europe) improved the product rather dramatically in terms of performance, economy and refinement (relatively) compared to times past.

Once you get a diesel engine that, on balance, outperforms a petrol engine the idea of using an LPG conversion to attempt to gain the same fuel cost per mile of running costs as can already be obtained from a diesel (more or less) without the need for an extra tank and some gubbins on the engine the LPG (or any similar in concept) will struggle to make sense. Unless subsidised, which would mean by implication government gets a lower tax take. That's about as likely as the introduction of flying pig power.

[zac510]

Originally Posted by Canada ALMS fan

Horndawg, Hydrogen fuel cells are not at all unrealistic IMO. BMW has had the system working for years. It's the infrastructure and concerns over public safety holding it back.

I thought that BMW had worked on a hydrogen powered internal combustion engine - quite distinctly different to a hydrogen fuel cell which Honda have working nicely now.

[Tom87]

Very interesting discussion, and possibly the most important one for our industry/hobby in the near future.

Personally I think motorsport is trapped between a rock and a hard place. IC powered motorsport is subject to an increasing danger of becoming unfashionable and irrelevant in the eyes of the public as alternative power becomes more popular. As this happens it will be far easier to force motorsport towards electric vehicles with draconian noise and emissions legislation - if burning petrol for the sake of entertainment becomes a public taboo, how many politicians would oppose banning motorsport as a 'green scapegoat'?

The 'hard place' so to speak is the difficulty of actually using anything other than an IC engine to propel the vehicle. As an engineering student I was set a project this year to conduct a feasibility study into running an all electric WRC car - sparing the details, the bottom line is that its still a generation or two worth of battery development away.

My personal opinion is that no manufacturer is racing in a major series with an all-electric vehicle because the technology simply isn't here yet - the waivers and rule changes required to be competitive would be far far beyond the diesel arguments of today and would simply be performance balancing on a ridiculous scale.

Lord Drayson's comments are certainly interesting and forward thinking, but they are ill-informed on both the receptiveness of racing fans to the concept and the technical feasibility of the idea.

[grantp]

Manufacturers have to live and to do that they have to work with currently available technologies.

'Governments' have to be seen to be 'doing something' so they will squeeze the margins on things they can claim to be 'bad' (or for which the public seems not to care enough to complain.) So they squeeze oil burning transport.

Now at some point will come the realisation that the Electric dream is a future not a now solution for the masses and certainly not a free ride based on 'wind' power. Hope prevailing over experience in its present prominence. Following along the manufactureres are playing the political game and refining IC technology to meet the targets - or are so doing where they feel the need to. The 'great and good' who are taking their companies 'green' seem, in the main, to be quite happy to continue to buy IC powered vehicles at the higher end of the CO2 output league. As it happens I don't think the CO2 output league is important as a 'green must have' so I don;t blame them at all. However, as a display of hipocracy it speaks loudly to those who think about it.

So Ferrari, Porsche, et al., don't really give a stiff but those in the lower markets do. Hence as the 'governments' change the rules and subsidise low CO2 outpu vehicles the manufacturers find technology to make that work in their marketing favour. Sometimes it is real. Sometimes it is an interpetation of the 'rules' which may have been poorly written.

If they can get to producing a 'powerful enough' IC engine capable of doing 100mpg and, because the infrastructure exists already, capable of being solf now all around the world then the alternatives will either have to be further subsidise of development will be reined back to, say, city cars and municipal transport.

If the primarily IC development gets to 150mpg for a 'powerful enough' engine running, perhaps, natural gas as an alternative if required, Poland will become a very wealthy country and any other technologies will only continue to be developed with the support of huge subsidies and a powerful influence lobby. And that assumes that there is enough flexibility in the economy to allow such vanity projects to still be funded once they are no longer seen as unavoidably necessary in the short to medium term.

There may be laws an Engineering Physics and Chemistry which would make such IC achievements impossible. But then that may also be true for battery development and hydrogen production.

Of course that does not mean that motor sport will not be stamped on anyway. It would not surprise me to see all sort of pressure brought be bear for all sorts of reasons, if not in the UK and USA then in other countries from which revenue is earned. Shrink the market and you strangle the product slowly but surely. There are plenty of people out there who would like to see that happen and a much larger number who would not care if it did since they have never thought about it. Nor will they think about the consequences of anything until it directly affects them - by which time it will likely be too late.

All of this may happen sooner rather than later although I really hope the effect will not become too apparent until I am old enough not to care too much.