Vettel out of R1 with Covid, Hulk stands is (no silliness)

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We do have better drivers than what we did before. Stroll is tenths off of his 4 time WDC team mate. Drivers before were 2-3 seconds off of their generic midfield team.

I suggest that says as much about how limiting Vettel is nowadays rather than how capable Stroll is.

Bottom line is none of the top teams would consider either of them for a seat if they lost a drive at Astonne.

I don't recall these pay drivers from the 90's being seconds off their teammates? Certainly not in half decent cars. There were some have a go (nowhere) drivers in backmarker teams but I don't see Lance as in the same league as an Elio De Angelis or even a De Cesaris.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I suggest that says as much about how limiting Vettel is nowadays rather than how capable Stroll is.

Disagree. Stroll was also less than a second off of Perez, who is currently around the pace of the current world champion. He also stuck it on pole in Turkey.

However, even if we pretend Vettel is a generic mid-field driver, the gap between a generic midfielder and a poor pay driver in the 90s was 2-3 seconds. Stroll is not 2-3 seconds off Vettel. If you, hypothetically fixed Vettel issues, and put him 2-3 seconds ahead of Stroll, he'd be at the front of the grid.

Once again, I'm in no way suggesting Stroll is a great driver. But he is FAR more capable than the majority of pay drivers we've seen over the decades. The standard is so much higher.

I don't recall these pay drivers from the 90's being seconds off their teammates?

Picking a random race: 1994 Spanish GP.
Andre Montermini (who had 3 seasons in F1 and was runner up in F3000) was 3 seconds off of David Brabham. Zanardi was 1.3 seconds off of Johnny Herbert.

Canadian GP: Bernard was 2 seconds off Panis.

Belgium: Gounon was 6 seconds off of Brabham. Katayama was 5 seconds off of Blundell.

Pick a random races. You'll find absolutely loads.

[S griffin]

Not really fair to use Montermini in the 94 Spanish GP as an example considering his big accident that weekend that ruled him out of the race.

Obviously there are factors as to why the gaps between team mates was bigger then than now. Nowadays the grid is a lot closer and it's harder to find that extra tenth as a result

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Not really fair to use Montermini in the 94 Spanish GP as an example considering his big accident that weekend that ruled him out of the race.

Obviously there are factors as to why the gaps between team mates was bigger then than now. Nowadays the grid is a lot closer and it's harder to find that extra tenth as a result

The grid being closer has no determination on 2 team mates being closer in the same car.

It's fine to say "you can't use this example because X", but my point is that if you load almost any race from 1992-1995, you'll find multiple examples of huge gaps between team mates. To suggest anyone on the grid currently is anywhere near as bad as these drivers is hugely under-estimating the current level in F1.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

The grid being closer has no determination on 2 team mates being closer in the same car.

With respect, you have it right when you say same car.

These days, teams, including pay driver teams, are far more well funded and thus capable of producing and maintaining two essentially identical cars (all be it in some cases two identically slow cars).

In days gone by, same teams and same car were not synonyms imo.

[Akrapovic]

Ukyo Katayama did not have a car 5 seconds slower than Mark Blundell.

Also with respect, I feel like it's a bit ridiculous to put any driver in the same bracket as the pay drivers of years gone by. There is not one single driver on the grid now that is as bad as a Taki Inoue. And Taki wasn't even the worst of the grid there.

[steve_r]

Stroll is not a bad driver. He is not WDC material, but we only need to look at last seasons grid to find a different pay driver who is much much much worse. He's already had a few podiums when the car allowed him to battle nearer the front. He's had a scruffy start to this season though.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Stroll is not a bad driver. He is not WDC material, but we only need to look at last seasons grid to find a different pay driver who is much much much worse. He's already had a few podiums when the car allowed him to battle nearer the front. He's had a scruffy start to this season though.

Agree. Nobody is one dimensional. IMHO...

* Ranks high/top on the paid driver scale (daddy bought an entire team for him)
* Ranks average as a driver. He had lots of help to get him to his current position, but given a good car, he is able to deliver results. But not WDC level at all.
* Ranks low in other areas like situational awareness on track, personability, etc

Richard

[Aysedasi]

We seem to have strayed from the subject of this thread, a subject which is now in the past, I guess....

[VIVA GT]

Quite right Ayse.
So, back to the thread subject it struck me how scruffy & out of sorts Seb looked at the weekend. Is this just the aftermath of his infection or is he actually losing interest?

[Aysedasi]

I dunno. Crap time, crap car, maybe the time has come....

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Once again, I'm in no way suggesting Stroll is a great driver. But he is FAR more capable than the majority of pay drivers we've seen over the decades.

With Stroll I think the difference is that his father didn't just buy a seat in the car, he paid for an entire driver development programme including private tests in a Williams F1 car. No doubt Stroll is capable - but he damn well should be after a driving education that is literally only affordable to a billionaire.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

With Stroll I think the difference is that his father didn't just buy a seat in the car, he paid for an entire driver development programme including private tests in a Williams F1 car. No doubt Stroll is capable - but he damn well should be after a driving education that is literally only affordable to a billionaire.

I don't think that's a difference, tbh. Pedro Diniz Family is one of the wealthiest in Brazil. His entire career was funded by this. Lando Noris family is on the UK Most Wealthy list. His family would hire race tracks and single seater cars for him to go private testing with. People love to defend Lando because he's good, and because he seems fun. But lets make no mistake - without the insane amount of money spent for him to hone his skills, he would not be where he is today. (I'm a big Lando fan, before anyone says anything).

Strolls wealth is obvious because his father is in the spot light for buying the team. Many others are just as wealthy, but their careers were progressed by this in less obvious ways.

This is before we discuss the advantages of having motor racing parents too. Max Verstappen. Kevin Magnussen. etc.

[Tourer]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

With respect, you have it right when you say same car.

These days, teams, including pay driver teams, are far more well funded and thus capable of producing and maintaining two essentially identical cars (all be it in some cases two identically slow cars).

In days gone by, same teams and same car were not synonyms imo.

Nailed it mate - comparing the gaps between teammates currently with the gaps back in the day is a pointless exercise. The cars back then were less consistent, less dependable and with less data, there were often much, much larger differences in setup between cars in the same team than is the case today - even when both cars were running faultlessly (rare with some teams).

Also, as you right point out, in many cases teams back then weren't really capable of producing 2 cars that were truly identical (it was actually 3 because of T cars back then). Even the top teams had differences that the drivers could feel and made a difference to lap times from chassis to chassis - thus they would have their fave chassis etc.

Comparing gaps then to gaps now might be statistically interesting but in all other respects is completely irrelevant.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Disagree. Stroll was also less than a second off of Perez, who is currently around the pace of the current world champion. He also stuck it on pole in Turkey.

However, even if we pretend Vettel is a generic mid-field driver, the gap between a generic midfielder and a poor pay driver in the 90s was 2-3 seconds. Stroll is not 2-3 seconds off Vettel. If you, hypothetically fixed Vettel issues, and put him 2-3 seconds ahead of Stroll, he'd be at the front of the grid.

Once again, I'm in no way suggesting Stroll is a great driver. But he is FAR more capable than the majority of pay drivers we've seen over the decades. The standard is so much higher.

I don't recall these pay drivers from the 90's being seconds off their teammates?

Picking a random race: 1994 Spanish GP.
Andre Montermini (who had 3 seasons in F1 and was runner up in F3000) was 3 seconds off of David Brabham. Zanardi was 1.3 seconds off of Johnny Herbert.

Canadian GP: Bernard was 2 seconds off Panis.

Belgium: Gounon was 6 seconds off of Brabham. Katayama was 5 seconds off of Blundell.

Pick a random races. You'll find absolutely loads.

Couldn't agree more.
Stroll isn't one of those generational special talents, heck he isn't even a Fisichella or Trulli.

But he's definitely no hack. A hack pay driver wouldn't stick it on the front row and get a podium in his first season in the sport

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

So, back to the thread subject it struck me how scruffy & out of sorts Seb looked at the weekend. Is this just the aftermath of his infection or is he actually losing interest?

Either he has had hair transplants (not a criticism, do what makes you happy), or is sporting a massive "combover". I think that "look" is exactly what he likes. A bit of wild unkempt hair and scruffy beard.

I don't think he is aiming for this?


Instead, maybe looking back to when he was much younger (circa 2009)?

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

We seem to have strayed from the subject of this thread, a subject which is now in the past, I guess....

Yeah, I don't get the point of this thread anymore.

Richard

[sizzle]

It might not relate to Vettel now but given there is a few from the Supercar paddock have it after the weekend it may well affect some on the F1 grid.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Ukyo Katayama did not have a car 5 seconds slower than Mark Blundell.

Also with respect, I feel like it's a bit ridiculous to put any driver in the same bracket as the pay drivers of years gone by. There is not one single driver on the grid now that is as bad as a Taki Inoue. And Taki wasn't even the worst of the grid there.

Ukyo waz quite often on par with Mega or ahead of him too!

I wasn't comparimg Stroll with pay drivers in tail end teams who never had much of a chance.

He is in a much more competitive environment than most of those you mentioned ever were.

FWIW i'd certainly liked to have seen Montermini, Gounon et al in equipment of Astons level in their day. Both were quick drivers. Gounon in particular was a great overtaker. Then how might Lance have coped in Simteks and old Minardis at that time!!

Let's see if Seb can work with the team to take the car forwards or whether he will just see it as too far gone already.

[S griffin]

Ukyo got better as time went on, although Mega was no superstar to be fair. Certainly I can see the similarities with Stroll. Lance himself is no megastar, but on his day and with a good car, he can do a great job.

The likes of Montermini and Gounon never got a chance because they weren’t quite good enough. They certainly showed their talents in the lower formulas, but they didn’t stand out, although they had their strengths like all top quality drivers. Stroll himself is in a lucky position, as options elsewhere are limited for him

Vettel I think can still do a good job, but I wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t continue beyond this year

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

With respect, you have it right when you say same car.

These days, teams, including pay driver teams, are far more well funded and thus capable of producing and maintaining two essentially identical cars (all be it in some cases two identically slow cars).

In days gone by, same teams and same car were not synonyms imo.

That is true, especially in the 60's and 70's and only with some teams. If you looked at Tyrrell or McLaren in 71-76 across the season not so obvious but some other teams clearly had two different deals going on. Talk to Johnnie Dumfries about his year at lotus against Senna as just one example.

But by the mid 90's that had disappeared and the cars both needed to be properly prepped without any real significant differences.
But it was still happening where the second driver was a 'fill-in'.
You only have to look at the differences between Andretti-Senna in 93 and compare with Senna-Hakkinen at the end of the same year to know that the cars Andretti had to drive were not in the same frame as those Andretti drove.
Listen to Andretti describe his experience at McLaren and you would understand.
Nowadays we have cars that can be driven closer to their edge more easily because of the aero assistance where grip can outweigh balance issues.
So the differences are closer.

In 1968 McLaren had a 1-2 at Ste Jovite.
Rindt was on pole, Hulme was 6th 1.1 seconds behind. McLaren was a tenth behind Denny in 8th, but Dan Gurney was 4/10s faster than Denny in 4th.So equal equipment there. Timing was to 1/10s of a second not thousandths.....
But in the race Denny won by over a lap from Bruce in second....
Pedro was third. Stewart was 6th and last runner 7 laps behind Hulme.
Those were the days....

Generalisations are just that.
Some races are exciting (like Monza in 65, or in 1969 and 71) and some teams were consistently equal in preparation, others were notorious for favouring one or another.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Talk to Johnnie Dumfries about his year at lotus against Senna as just one example.

Could be rather difficult...........................

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Could be rather difficult...........................

In a personal sense one to one, yes it would.
But he left enough of legacy to inform of the circumstances.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

In a personal sense one to one, yes it would.
But he left enough of legacy to inform of the circumstances.

You should listen to his last ever interview, on the Beyond the Grid podcast

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by S griffin

You should listen to his last ever interview, on the Beyond the Grid podcast

I have, some time ago.

[Born Racer]

He's very good, although Tsunoda has started to show him up a few times this year for some reason or another.