[WEC] Alpine Hypercar Discussion

[chernaudi]

The Mechachrome F2 and F3 engines are 3.4 liter turbocharged V6s, basically the same as the WEC engine. However, the F2 engine is rated at 620bhp for sprint races, not the 670+ that the LMDh/GTP engine is rated for over 24+ hours.


Audi Sport engine designer Ulrich Baretzky said that the most problems that engine designers or tuners run into is getting the last 20 or so HP out of an engine, and he should know from experience--he was also involved in the Brabham-BMW F1 engine program

[veeten]

So, A 50 bhp hole that this engine has, and they tried to meet that demand by taking it farther than the valves could withstand. Wanna bet it's the seals that failed?

When they rebuild these engines, the heads should be redesigned to handle at least 720.

[Articus]

Originally Posted by veeten

Sounds like the valve train isn't engineered to take that increase in volumetric input from forced induction, as this is an N/A based F2 engine. You just can't slap a turbo on an engine, and expect it to just push out to without knowing what the internals can handle, or the rate of possible breakdown.

Kinda makes you wonder what the F1 team's engines have been dealing with over the last couple of years...

Porsche took the N/A RS spyder engine and made it turbocharged for the 963 hypercar but it is a very low boost application. It is not unthinkable.

Also, Renault was the first manufacturer to race a turbo engine in Formula One. It is their tradition and their history. I'm sure there are simple solutions to the problems. Unlike many others, Renault doesn't have their own engine that would suit this category. Mechachrome has been a partner of the Renault F1 engine program for a long time. It makes sense that they have collaborated.

[Sodemo]

Could they re bore the engine to make it a larger capacity?

[Steve McQ]

It may even be a reliability joker.

But, when the WEC/LM program was announced a few years back it was said that Renault racing engines division at Viry would lead a big development on the engine side so that the original underfunded endurance Mecachrome machine would become a stellar one.
If they really had valve train issues, which is pretty fundamental, did they really do the job they promised ?

[veeten]

And, in some ways, it sounds like the mid-70's where Renault was establishing both GP and Prototype/Le Mans entries, both using versions of the Renault-Gordini turbo V6 engine. And exactly as it was then, not only did they have small victories, they had major issues that had to be ironed out. Better to find them out now, and do the work to improve them.

[veeten]

Well I believe we can see what the real issue is, it's the entire PU, not just one component. Similar to the problems with the F1 PU, but minus the MGU-H.

[Adam43]

How do we know it’s the whole and not one part of the PU?

[tomcug]

We don't (with any decent certainty at least). But guys at Alpine should know (or am I too optimistic?). Myself I'd just use the VRX30A, the Mechachrome even with rework done at Viry is a just a bomb with unknown delay.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by tomcug

We don't (with any decent certainty at least). But guys at Alpine should know (or am I too optimistic?). Myself I'd just use the VRX30A, the Mechachrome even with rework done at Viry is a just a bomb with unknown delay.

+ 1. In french, when they say Viry Chatillon it means some issues could be fixed (in this case mostly they say its the turbo or a spark plug) when they say Mécachrome it means not Renault. Listening to the live during LM it was obvious that the ICE sounds like a bag of nails each time they start or restart it after a pit stop or long FCY.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by tomcug

We don't (with any decent certainty at least). But guys at Alpine should know (or am I too optimistic?). Myself I'd just use the VRX30A, the Mechachrome even with rework done at Viry is a just a bomb with unknown delay.

That would be simpler and probably more effective

[Gerard C]

Focus on the chassis for São Polo. I cant imagine the poor jokes they'll have if ever they blow an engine on the 14 th of July. Drama or fiesta, fingers crossed. https://www.autohebdo.fr/actualites/...sao-paulo.html

[tomcug]

Fingers crossed, the car is good just the engine needs to survive.

[Articus]

I don't think they will have engine problems. Le Mans is a very specific engine load profile. Many kilometers at full throttle high rpm. They didn't have any failures in the first 3 races.

[Gerard C]

And they've been working hard since LM.

[Articus]

Some detail about Alpine's engine challenges: https://us.motorsport.com/wec/news/a...onship%20round.


-There are no new parts for Sao Paolo. A "different engine management strategy" is in place for Sao Paolo so they do not expect issues. Sao Paolo also isn't so hard on the engine.

Sinault expanded on that ahead of the race at Interlagos, explaining that the valve problem had occurred in testing prior to Le Mans.

“We have had this problem before, but never so early — we were a little surprised [at Le Mans] to be honest,” he explained.

“In testing when we had this issue with the valve it was always after we had completed 24 hours.”Sinault explained that new engine parts aimed at eradicating the problem are under development at Alpine’s Viry-Chatillon engine HQ on the outskirts of Paris and that he is expecting their arrival before the end of the 2024 campaign.

The new parts are expected in Austin.

[Adam43]

This is based on no actual facts. It is made up speculation.
Based on the speed traps (which we are struggling with at the moment), perhaps they've turned the engine down from the allowed power?

[Articus]

Originally Posted by Adam43

This is based on no actual facts. It is made up speculation.
Based on the speed traps (which we are struggling with at the moment), perhaps they've turned the engine down from the allowed power?

There must be something there. The speed figures for the #35 and #36 Alpine cars in the race are amongst the LMGT3 cars.




Considering this, Alpine's performance was very impressive. This car has a lot of pace, but it is being hidden by teething troubles.

[Gerard C]

The top speeds of the best GT3's are impressive too.

[Adam43]

This suggests to me that they are still accelerating near the speed trap. We know that GT cars can be quicker in the slow corners, like the last turn, so maybe they just haven't made it up by then

Average Maximum Speed

Rank	Car	Top Speed	Top 50	Top 100	Top 150	Most Common
1	81 Corvette	258.5	251.9	250.6	249.2	250.8
2	36 Alpine	266	252.4	248.2	245.1	241.9
3	35 Alpine	256.7	248.3	245.8	244	241.3
4	82 Corvette	261	246.7	243.3	239.3	245.1

Should be relatively easy to find TV footage of Alpine and GTs on the start finish.

[Gerard C]

Speed trap positioning apart, strange to see a 10kph difference between two identical cars. If they detuned the engine as you supposed, may be they didn't put all the eggs in the same basket?

As to the on-board videos they don't all show the data now.

[tomcug]

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...mans-failures/

We identified clearly the reason

Let's hope they did

[Gerard C]

Humble and conservative. But its always Mécachrome and the turbo tho…

[tomcug]

https://www.motorsport.com/wec/news/...year/10650025/
Hopefully they can get it fixed before next Le Mans

[Gerard C]

Obviously it's not a latter of redesigning a valve, Famin is very good at BS. Milesi has been impressive during the hyperpole almost driving in apnea all way long.