US GP Indianapolis - Race

[kipper]

Originally Posted by mp356a

For one team it's a sport. For the other it's a business. One team cares about the fans. The other does not. Team orders this early in the season is a slap in the face to the fans who'd like to see a race. Of course I could be wrong.

To be fair, Ferrari having both cars running in order makes any team orders a lot easier to apply. Where as for Renault, if they were to switch placed between Fisichella and Alonso, they would have needed to have given Trulli third place. As a result they would have scored one less point in the constructors championship. Regardless, I can't say that I'm to fond of team orders, but seeing as F1 is a team sport, I suspect that they are inevitable.

[Louis B.]

I've read all the above post and I find the people here pretty crual in their evaluation of this weekend's race.

Out of frustration after JV's retirement, I myself turned off the TV at that point. I nevertheless watched the race later in the evening and found it not so bad.

There were spectacular racing incidents, a few overtakings, another Sato T-boning, cars keeping racing with duck tape holding the pieces altogether (MF1) and some "audacious" / dangerous moves (Rosberg and Liuzzi for instance).

The team orders deprived us of a better show but we have seen much worst in the last couple of years.

Your general pessimism makes me wonder whether this is caused by an overdose of f1 (races in two consecutive weekends) or by the loss of one's national team in an unrelated sport (I could understand that, France win over Brazil put a smile on my face for a couple of hours (Sorry Bononi!)).

[kipper]

With regard to the posts regarding the race being restarted, it would have created a slightly topsy turvey grid, for my understanding is that any driver that switches to their spare car and doesn't take their original engine with them is classed as an engine change, which due to it being after qualifying would have seen a number of drivers being put to the back of the grid. Which would have made for a slighlty more intriguing race, in my opinion.

[Dutton]

Louis, I don't think football had anything to do with the opinions on the race. For example, it is Germany I want to see win the thing, and England going out (whilst I would have prefered them to stay in) does not bother me.

Add to this that Ferrari got a 1-2, and Alonso finished in 5th (as opposed to 3rd/4th).

I thought/think it was a pants race, but the result of it I am highly satisfied with.

Originally Posted by mp356a

For one team it's a sport. For the other it's a business. One team cares about the fans. The other does not. Team orders this early in the season is a slap in the face to the fans who'd like to see a race. Of course I could be wrong.

I personally have no issue with team-orders. The comment of mine you were responding to was not a complaint about it (the possibility of it) happening, but rather an attempt to point out that all teams do it if they see fit.

All of them.

I also don't agree with "this early in the season". Teams should be allowed to do what they want, whenever they want. I would also argue it really is not that early in the season, when one considers the disparity between the team-mates of the two teams (in terms of WDC points, I mean).

In this particular instance, both Renault and Ferrari would've-been/were perfectly justified in doing it. Fisi was (seemingly) let past Alonso, since the team decided it was best for their cause, due to him being so much quicker. Ferrari (possibly) engineered Michael getting past Massa in the pits.

It is all perfectly reasonable to my mind.

HOWEVER, having said that, by the letter of the (stupid) law, team-orders are illegal this season. Just as they were last season. This rule has been constantly ignored since its introduction, by both the teams and the FIA, as was always going to happen, which just makes introducing it utterly pointless.

Well, not "pointless" I guess. It stops it happening blatantly on the line, which prevents the media/unthinking-spectators from going into a hissy fit.

What a sad state of affairs.

[mp356a]

Originally Posted by knowlesy

If only they had stopped the race and allowed some cars to rejoin...

Concur.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Louis, I don't think football had anything to do with the opinions on the race.

Why do we have smileys such as this one on this motorsport forum then?: (I dedicate this one to Messrs. Robinson, Lampard & Gerrard)

Incidently, Michael himself made the link between his win and this weekend's football results.

Originally Posted by Dutton

For example, it is Germany I want to see win the thing, and England going out (whilst I would have prefered them to stay in) does not bother me. Add to this that Ferrari got a 1-2, and Alonso finished in 5th (as opposed to 3rd/4th). I thought/think it was a pants race, but the result of it I am highly satisfied with.

I was just wondering as to why the comments were generally so negative. That there were far better races we all agree. To single out Indy as a bad venue as some people here did infer (not you) is, IMHO, not justified.

[Dutton]

Those emoticons exist for the football forum. I am not saying people don't have interest in the game. My point is I really don't think it will have affected people's thoughts on the race (it is a totally different thing).

Michael did not make link between the two. He said that Germany winning, Italy winning, and Ferrari winng the race added together to make a perfect weekend. Three good things adding up to a greater happiness, but that is not making an intrinsic link. Suppose that Germany and Italy both lost their football matches. Winning the race would've been just as sweet.

I tend to agree regarding the Indy thing. There have been good races at Indy too, and there seems to have been a bit of an unreasonable link between the race and the venue. The infield section is rubbish, though.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Michael did not make link between the two. He said that Germany winning, Italy winning, and Ferrari winng the race added together to make a perfect weekend. Three good things adding up to a greater happiness, but that is not making an intrinsic link. Suppose that Germany and Italy both lost their football matches. Winning the race would've been just as sweet..

I see, to state that: "A football win + GP win = greater happiness" is ok;
but to state that: a football loss + a so so race = increased morosity & negativism" isn't...

Originally Posted by Dutton

The infield section is rubbish, though.

Pfft! Ask you plumber, there is no better designed plumbing system anywhere else.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Dutton

The infield section is rubbish, though.

The infield section is pants!

Would have been better if they'd have used both straights on the oval and slowed the cars as has been done before turn 13.

And,NO! The Football result didn't influence my feelings about the race at all.It wasn't Hungaroring bad,but it was bad.JPM removing a quarter to a third of the field at the first corner obviously didn't help either.Way to go JPM.

[Dutton]

Increased, or decreased, total hapiness is not the same thing as making a link between the separate items.

A good result in football plus a good result in F1 is better than a bad result in football and a good result in F1.

That does not mean the result in football affects the quality of the F1.

The total happiness factor and the individual merit factor are quite different things.

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

And,NO!

I see, it still hurts...

[Louis B.]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Increased, or decreased, total hapiness is not the same thing as making a link between the separate items.

A good result in football plus a good result in F1 is better than a bad result in football and a good result in F1.

That does not mean the result in football affects the quality of the F1.

The total happiness factor and the individual merit factor are quite different things.

Indeed, one is much better being rich and healthy than being poor and sick.

*No clue as to where this is going to lead us but let's see...*

[Louis B.]

Back on topic: As anyone else noticed Trulli overtaking a back marker under yellow flags after the Sato et al. incident?

[Adam43]

He had passed him before the yellow flag. The yellow flag was for the first corner. The timing said Trulli was ahead at the line for the start of the lap.

[BriannaBee]

Originally Posted by Yazz

sad for Speed, Montoya, Villeneuve, Kimi - they could all have had a good race.

Montoya made the boneheaded move that destroyed so many other's races and made the race a real bore so no sympathy whatsoever for him. That said, I'm glad that he didn't get a penalty. Alonso is very lucky that Montoya did him a favour because Alonso possibly would have finished even further back had Kimi, Montoya and Heidfeld been competing, never mind the retirements of Ralf and Villeneuve. FA was lucky to get away so lightly after a poor weekend.

[shiny side up!]

Originally Posted by Dutton

According to the Speed dudes, TG was going to make decision on future races on the basis of the success of this one.

I don't think that is true. I think the ball is pretty squarely in Bernie / Max's court.

TG gave a speech on Thur evening to all of the USAC volunteers at the track, and said that he was pushing for all he was worth to secure future dates at Indy. Again on Sunday after the race when TG stopped by Parc Ferme, he again said that he considered the race a success and anticipated meeting with Bernie to discuss the future of the USGP at Indy in a few weeks' time.

Incidentally, I find it interesting that both Charlie Whiting and Jo Bauer said this weekend that they hope the race stays at Indy. When asked about Las Vegas at the end of the startline marshall's meeting, Whiting laughed and said "what, and run up and down the strip? Stupid." In the technical briefing at Parc Ferme after qualifying, Jo Bauer said that he loves to come to Indy, and although they have had some bad luck there, it is largely not due to the track itself, and that there just isn't anywhere else in the US that he would want to see the series go to right now.

[JeremySmith]

After much thought I hope that the USGP stays at Indy...The fact that the in field section is so totally different to the the oval makes for a challenging set up..Also if we would like to see it become more popular with American racing fans, leave it alone and give it time in one venue...

[Dutton]

It would be nice if they could do something with the double-hairpin before the banking though.

It seems totally unnecessary.

[Marbot]

The whole track is a mis-match,it's like the Hungaroring meets Monza.

[Skam85]

Originally Posted by marzF1rocks

Maybe if were lucky they will all fiinsh next year.

They did last year!

[Raglanparade]

I think think we should just run it around the oval.. save for a chicane where turn 1 is, and a chicane on the back straight somewhere...

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by jasonhill9884

I think think we should just run it around the oval.. save for a chicane where turn 1 is, and a chicane on the back straight somewhere...

Should be worth at least a couple of a hundred laps.

[kipper]

As far as I'm aware, under FIA rules circuits that are based on an infield course of an oval can only use on corner on the oval without much stonger crash tests, hence the road courses at Indianapolis, Eurospeedway Lausitz and Rockingham all have a turn before they reach the first banked corner and rejoin the oval prior to the final banked corner before the finish line. With regard to Indy, I imagine that it would be difficult to alter Turn 13 due to the postion of the pits and grandstands. As a result I suspect it would be tricky to incoporate significant amounts of the oval for the F1 race.

[Louis B.]

I truly fail to understand what many of you have against the f1 Indy track.

Yes it looks odd when you compare a plan of it with the plans of the other f1 tracks but why does it matter so much?

Personnally, I like it the way it is. It at least shuffles the card a bit for the World Championship titles (something no other f1 track has so far been able to achieve this season). Different tracks with different set-up / aero / reliability requirements is one way to ensure some diversity in car design and performance.

I don't recall any of you complaining about Spa eventhough almost all the cars were damaged in the first turn in 1998. I hear some of you thinking: "Yes Louis but this was because the start was given in wet conditions!" My answer to that is: Why then are you so happy or praying for wet races then if what you want is a track ensuring a race without too many DNFs.

For a rare moment, I almost feel sympathy for the FIA and race organisers trying to please the sometimes very inconsistent and incoherent requests from the f1 fans.