What is Aston Martin up to?

[Audi Racer]

Originally Posted by canam

Why is there such delusion when we enter the Petrol vs Diesel debate.

On current regs, Diesel wins. If a big manufacturer comes in and provides a fleet of cars to the ACO, builds large buildings in the track area, resurfaces the road and constructs a factory in the Sartre THEN the petrol regs may move to a balance. Right now, the ACO could not care less about the 'Petrol "Class"'. They had a great race in 2011 and more people watching and through the gate. Why is change needed?

They don't give a 'monkeys'! about the so-called petrol class.

Proper manufacturers know the score. The regs need to change for a Petrol car to have a chance. that is why they are still on the sidelines.

DR will not have the leverage to make the ACO change its approach

?

i think they don't care about the petrol class because its a bunch of privateer teams.

I think that if Toyota or Nissan joins P1. That is the impetus that the ACO is waiting for before they change the rules.

Audi and Peugeot do not want to be slower than Pescarolo and Rebellion. If the ACO lets that happen, Audi and Peugeot will leave.

Audi and Peugeot will not leave if they lose to factory Toyota or Factory Nissan. theyll just come back and try to beat them again. Thats why Peugeot keeps coming back....To beat Audi.


I think The lack of a true petrol manufacturer is the reason the ACO won't fix the performance balancing.

i also think that If a true petrol manufacturer joins LMP1 the ACO will promptly cut the diesel advantage to nothing.

[MitchZ06]

They won't cut it down to nothing if a serious factory team enters a petrol P1 car. They'd promptly lose all credibility and become a joke of a governing body and pretty much open the door for teams to give them a royal *******ing since their Audi/Peugeot favoritism will become so obvious. Expect a regulation adjustment to be a gradual thing if the ACO is smart about keeping their reputation intact.

[Tim the Grey]

Excuse me...
Commercial Reality.
Not Favouritism!

I return you to your thread.

[AGD]

With all the resources and subsequent development that Audi and Peugeot do, they could be several seconds a lap faster than the privateer petrols even with "balanced" rules. If that is the case, I don't think Audi and Peugeot would really care if they are only 6 seconds a lap faster than 8 or 9 lets just say. It's still quite possible IMO that the rules are favorable for petrol runners currently.

[canam]

It got very close a few years ago. The R8 vs the Pesca (in hybrid form). It was a race that Pesca lost. They had the pace above the others.

When the manufacturers pull out, the ACO will make the adjustments...vos they will have to.

[AGD]

Originally Posted by canam

It got very close a few years ago. The R8 vs the Pesca (in hybrid form). It was a race that Pesca lost. They had the pace above the others.

When the manufacturers pull out, the ACO will make the adjustments...vos they will have to.

I hope nobody is using 2005 as the benchmark of balanced rules as the rules were really stacked against the R8 that year.

[canam]

Originally Posted by AGD

I hope nobody is using 2005 as the benchmark of balanced rules as the rules were really stacked against the R8 that year.

Not true. They were balanced in favour of a Hybrid (body shape) and against the R8, Zytek, Dallarra, Creation--and any other flat bottomed car. Pesca ran the only Hybrid at that time from memory and had circa 10% more power given to them by the ACO.

Zytek and Creation were running neck and neck (at least in terms of pace) with the R8 in 2004 and 2005.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by canam

Pesca ran the only Hybrid at that time from memory and had circa 10% more power given to them by the ACO.

The other hybrid was the Jim Gainer Dome 101HB, but that was hampered by the choice of Mugen 4.0V8 (as well as gearbox issues). It was around 5 seconds slower than the Jud 5.0V10 powered Pescarolos (at Le Mans).

[AGD]

Originally Posted by canam

Not true. They were balanced in favour of a Hybrid (body shape) and against the R8, Zytek, Dallarra, Creation--and any other flat bottomed car. Pesca ran the only Hybrid at that time from memory and had circa 10% more power given to them by the ACO.

Zytek and Creation were running neck and neck (at least in terms of pace) with the R8 in 2004 and 2005.

You are right that the qualifying times were closer for the old LMP900s that were running heavy, but really the races were less of a competition back then than even today with the diesels vs. petrols. Anyway, the Pescarolos and the R8s were running to quite different rules in 2005 and must be considered when looking at the closeness of the results. In fact, in this year's case, Pescarolo is the one running a grandfathered car and yet they were very fast compared to the other petrols. Was that fair? Hard to say.

My mind is getting fuzzy now about this race, but was the Creation running to the same rules as the R8 etc.?

Originally Posted by Bentley03

The other hybrid was the Jim Gainer Dome 101HB, but that was hampered by the choice of Mugen 4.0V8 (as well as gearbox issues). It was around 5 seconds slower than the Jud 5.0V10 powered Pescarolos (at Le Mans).

I think the factory Courages were running to the hybrid rules as well that year. I don't remember which engines they were running at that point though. I don't think they were running the Mugans yet.

[canam]

Originally Posted by Bentley03

The other hybrid was the Jim Gainer Dome 101HB, but that was hampered by the choice of Mugen 4.0V8 (as well as gearbox issues). It was around 5 seconds slower than the Jud 5.0V10 powered Pescarolos (at Le Mans).

You are correct. 'Senior' moment.

During quali JJ Lehto commented "are we in the same race" when seeing the pace of the Pescas.

[Bentley03]

Originally Posted by AGD

I think the factory Courages were running to the hybrid rules as well that year. I don't remember which engines they were running at that point though. I don't think they were running the Mugans yet.

Yep, I think you're right, and would have been running 4.0l Judds. Their pace was disappointing, only Henri made the most of the hybrid advantage in the regs.

Sorry, way off topic now..........

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by canam

It got very close a few years ago. The R8 vs the Pesca (in hybrid form). It was a race that Pesca lost. They had the pace above the others.

When the manufacturers pull out, the ACO will make the adjustments...vos they will have to.

Different kettle of fish. Completely.

2005 saw the introduction of new rules, rules which the ACO would obviously want entrants to stick to! To encourage teams to take the hybrid body shape, the old-spec cars were hit hard.

You can understand why they did this; it would have been so easy for a privateer team with decent backing to buy an old R8 and basically garauntee themselves a shot of a podium finish.

It's not the same now. What are the ACO supposed to do? Make Audi and Pug so slow that they can barely pull away from cars on a tenth of their budget? How could they justify racing at all?

[canam]

Originally Posted by AGD

You are right that the qualifying times were closer for the old LMP900s that were running heavy, but really the races were less of a competition back then than even today with the diesels vs. petrols. Anyway, the Pescarolos and the R8s were running to quite different rules in 2005 and must be considered when looking at the closeness of the results.

My mind is getting fuzzy now about this race, but was the Creation running to the same rules as the R8 etc.?

Creation and Zytek were running to the same rules as the R8. It was in 2006 that the Pesca was running as a hybrid and had much more power.

Less of a competition??? Silverstone: on the penultimate lap (of a 6 hour race), the gap was roughly 3/10s of a second (Audi vs Creation). Competition was very strong.

This year's LM was a blinder--unusually close and.....dare I say,.....justifying the ACO's attitude to (what).....oh.......the 'petrol class' (or lack of it)

[AGD]

Originally Posted by canam

Creation and Zytek were running to the same rules as the R8. It was in 2006 that the Pesca was running as a hybrid and had much more power.

Less of a competition??? Silverstone: on the penultimate lap (of a 6 hour race), the gap was roughly 3/10s of a second (Audi vs Creation). Competition was very strong.

This year's LM was a blinder--unusually close and.....dare I say,.....justifying the ACO's attitude to (what).....oh.......the 'petrol class' (or lack of it)

Well, Audi had the R10 by 2006. You must be talking about 2005 with the R8. Anyway, I thought the Creation was running lighter than the R8? Wasn't it a LMP675? (Yes, I know we're going way off-topic, but I guess it is still relevant somehow).

[FordCosworthPanoz]

Okay, we have another Diesel vs Petrol debate. The arguments are never ending and will always be inconclusive. But I wish to warn people that equalizing performance and bringing cars closer together can often do nothing to stop domination.

A petrol car hasnt finished on the podium at Le Mans since 2007, correct? Well, a car other than the Riley MkXX hasnt finished on the podium at Daytona under the tight Grand Am rules since 2006. This same car has won the Rolex 24 since 2005. Since 2004 It has won every Drivers and Teams championship in Grand Am, basically all but one year since the Daytona Prototype formula was developed. In 92 races from 2004 to 2010 it has had 75 race wins, 79 poles, and 75 fastest laps.

In Indycar, until this year there has been incredible domination by Penske and Ganassi, especially on ovals, in a spec series. Ganassi has finished on the lead lap of every Rolex 24 since 2006. So just because you bring the rules closer together between petrol/diesel doesnt mean Audi and Peugeot will stop dominating.

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by FordCosworthPanoz

Okay, we have another Diesel vs Petrol debate. The arguments are never ending and will always be inconclusive. But I wish to warn people that equalizing performance and bringing cars closer together can often do nothing to stop domination.

A petrol car hasnt finished on the podium at Le Mans since 2007, correct? Well, a car other than the Riley MkXX hasnt finished on the podium at Daytona under the tight Grand Am rules since 2006. This same car has won the Rolex 24 since 2005. Since 2004 It has won every Drivers and Teams championship in Grand Am, basically all but one year since the Daytona Prototype formula was developed. In 92 races from 2004 to 2010 it has had 75 race wins, 79 poles, and 75 fastest laps.

In Indycar, until this year there has been incredible domination by Penske and Ganassi, especially on ovals, in a spec series. Ganassi has finished on the lead lap of every Rolex 24 since 2006. So just because you bring the rules closer together between petrol/diesel doesnt mean Audi and Peugeot will stop dominating.

Good points... year after year we have the moaning about the Diesels... but where are the propper petrols? To finish on a podium you also have to build a fast and reliable petrol race car at first, haven't you...

[joeb]

Originally Posted by carsten66

Good points... year after year we have the moaning about the Diesels... but where are the propper petrols? To finish on a podium you also have to build a fast and reliable petrol race car at first, haven't you...

Wait, you said "fast and reliable petrol race car" that statement is way off topic in this thread!

[anthonyvop]

Originally Posted by carsten66

Good points... year after year we have the moaning about the Diesels... but where are the propper petrols? To finish on a podium you also have to build a fast and reliable petrol race car at first, haven't you...

So true.

It all comes back to what a man at my local speed shop told me back in my Teenage years.

Speed costs Money.....
.......How fast do you want to go?

I truly believe that if a manufacturer was to create a gasoline powered LMP1 program and fund it as much as Audi and Peugeot it would be competitive.

[The Badger]

And so do I .

[Tim the Grey]

Are we in danger of being within VIEW of the topic, yet???

[The Badger]

Hardly .

[canam]

Originally Posted by anthonyvop

I truly believe that if a manufacturer was to create a gasoline powered LMP1 program and fund it as much as Audi and Peugeot it would be competitive.

Some people believe Elvis is still alive as well.

Without major performance balancing, it just wont happen. The characteristics of the two engines are so dramatically different and the current set of regs still favour diesels.

That is another reason why the AMR-One will fail--apart from being a dog

[chernaudi]

Oddly, I found this on line:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...S_2011_923.jpg

A coincidence, a reminder that Ford is minority owner of Aston Martin, or just a tad aspirational?

[AGD]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

A coincidence, a reminder that Ford is minority owner of Aston Martin, or just a tad aspirational?

Hideous! But it's probably just a coincidence. Maybe it is aspirational, although it's probably a better car than the Cygnet!

[anthonyvop]

Originally Posted by canam

Some people believe Elvis is still alive as well.

Without major performance balancing, it just wont happen. The characteristics of the two engines are so dramatically different and the current set of regs still favour diesels.

That is another reason why the AMR-One will fail--apart from being a dog

really?

This weekend the Gas powered cars were less than 2 seconds off the 2nd Audi's qualifying time.
This from a non-factory funded team. You give me $20 Million and I am sure I can close that gap.