Project Libra Radical LMP2 (formerly Ian Dawsons Nissan V8 LMP2)

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by knighty

erm, yes its actually very relevant.....its a common incorrect assumptuion that LMP2 is cheaper as they are smaller, they are actually just as expensive if not more than the LMP1.

You can make all of the assumptions you want to, but speaking as someone with access to the contracts I know what costs what. Anyway I can't be arsed to argue.

[knighty]

steady one there, arguing on 10-10ths.......us lot......never

[JAG]

Why is there a distinction being made between a production based engine like the Nissan V8 and a GT2 homologated one like the Ferrari V8?

Would a GT2 engine be more sophisticated/expensive, hence having a smaller capacity.

* 4.0 ltr production based petrol engine homologated to 2010 LM GT2
* 4.5 ltr production based petrol engine
* 4.0 ltr production diesel engine with induction as per the original

Originally Posted by LagunaSnaka

Looks like a great effort! Seems like they are already exceeding the ACO horsepower goal of 420 for LMP2 next year. Is this set in stone? i.e. if a team comes up with a production engine putting out a lot more power will they be restricted? Just trying to get my head around the 2011 rules/changes... http://www.mariantic.co.uk/lmp/future.asp

Goals, targets, they're just a rough guide.

[betablocker]

[QUOTE=JAG;2684889]Why is there a distinction being made between a production based engine like the Nissan V8 and a GT2 homologated one like the Ferrari V8?

As far as im aware, it is a 4ltr engine which is a production engine and is to the same rules as a ferrari. Im probably wrong though.

Just to add my 2pence worth to the argument going on, i can see 250k being spent on engines for a sesaons running - 6 races and a half decent test package. Yeah a few rebuild there and 2 engines for lemans so yep i can definately see that.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by Purist

This sounds very interesting.

A bit of a side note, but wasn't Ian involved with some major program or other back in the IMSA GTP days? I just can't recall off hand which program it was. Since everyone seems skeptical of the guy, I thought a look back on his larger track record might be helpful.

Ford Probe GTP and also the Richard Lloyd Racing 962C. Sure there are others, these are the only ones that come to mind at the moment.

[Purist]

Thanks, Mike.

[knighty]

[QUOTE=betablocker;2684950]

Originally Posted by JAG

Why is there a distinction being made between a production based engine like the Nissan V8 and a GT2 homologated one like the Ferrari V8?

As far as im aware, it is a 4ltr engine which is a production engine and is to the same rules as a ferrari. Im probably wrong though.
.

very good question and correct!........I think the concessions that the ACO have given to IES for the new Nissan V8 LMP2 are an admission that they have yet again made a cock-up in the engine rules, expecting teams to use a near standard mass production road car engines for LMP2 endurance racing is a joke, standard con-rods, pistons and crankshafts will just not last the distance, all engine builders have been there, done that, and got their fingers burnt, its just a false economy.......hence IES also realised this and went the GT2 route via politley asking the ACO to follow the Ferrari GT2 benchmark weights and layout..........I expect to see many more GT2 engines to be used in LMP2.......and I expect to see no standard road car engines......... yes Sodemo did the BMW V8, but that thing is mostly a race motor to start with - a very impressive piece of kit, even in the road car!

to my knowledge Ian has been about a bit, chief mechanic at Lotus F1, Richard Lloyd Porsches, MD of Pacific F1, MD of Zakspeed, GRID leMans car, ran an F3000 team for David Coulthard, ran Justin Wilson in a junir formulae, GTP, won LMP2 with the nissan-multimatics lola in 2000ish, Danka Ferrari LeMans programe, now his main business is restoring and running group C cars in the historic series.......I went to his workshop last year......my jaw was on the floor!!!!......some serious toys were present!

[The Badger]

I didnt realise that Ian Dawson had such a vast pedigree .....

[isynge]

Dawson's track record is one of the reasons I've taken ECO a lot more seriously than some of the other more vapourware like entries. There's no question that there's a lot of experience and ability there, and the fact that they are trying something both different and hard impresses me a lot.

Sure, the Radical Nissan is unlikely to win anything, but I'd take it over a flock of LMPCs any day of the week.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by knighty

very good question and correct!........I think the concessions that the ACO have given to IES for the new Nissan V8 LMP2 are an admission that they have yet again made a cock-up in the engine rules, expecting teams to use a near standard mass production road car engines for LMP2 endurance racing is a joke, standard con-rods, pistons and crankshafts will just not last the distance, all engine builders have been there, done that, and got their fingers burnt, its just a false economy.......hence IES also realised this and went the GT2 route via politley asking the ACO to follow the Ferrari GT2 benchmark weights and layout..........I expect to see many more GT2 engines to be used in LMP2.......and I expect to see no standard road car engines......... yes Sodemo did the BMW V8, but that thing is mostly a race motor to start with - a very impressive piece of kit, even in the road car!

I still think a stock engine with endurance parts a good formula! I think the ACO went too far in allowing the configuration of said parts in the IES engine to be changed. Generally, the metallurgy of the stock parts is not good enough for this application and changing that is pretty much a necessity to get any life out of them (crank, rods, pistons and valve train), and allowing that to be changed understandable. IMO where the ACO cocked it up is by allowing the engine to be re-engineered!





L.P.

[Fogelhund]

It isn't as if they are dealing with a pure road car engine. This engine started out life as the Infiniti Pro Series block.

[JAG]

So the IES Nissan V8 has been built to GT2 specs, therefore is 4l.

As the ACO have made these concessions for the Nissan, could we assume GT2 Chevy and Ford engines may be allowed to run at their GT2 capacities, as at 4l they would presumably not be competitive.

[Victor_RO]

Perhaps, but only choked to death by microscopic restrictors compared to the other engines.

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Perhaps, but only choked to death by microscopic restrictors compared to the other engines.

But isn't it the case that the GT2 Chevy and Ford V8's cannot be competitive at 4l, the extra capacity is needed to be on a level playing field with the likes of the GT2 4l Ferrari V8.

[knighty]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

It isn't as if they are dealing with a pure road car engine. This engine started out life as the Infiniti Pro Series block.

it is!!!!......I feel well positioned to comment on that as I did some design work on that engine when at TWR race engines just before the organisation went pop......forget comparisons with the infiniti pro-series engine, IES are doing this from scratch via using crate engines.........believe me when I say the standard infiniti road car engine is nothing special and does not compare to engines like the BMW or ferrari.

any alloy block MASS production engine is generally designed with one major consideration - lowest cost to meet emissions, durability and NVH requirements.....the materials will only be good enough to the job they were designed for, hence i believe IES did the right thing in replacing the highly stressed parts......anyway, lets not get caught up on the fine detail, the ACO have let them do it, so lets see how it performs.......this engine represents the future direction of general LMP racing so it wil be an interesting story to watch......as a minimum I'm thinking they must beat the LMPC cars

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by knighty

IES are doing this from scratch via using crate engines.........

Strange... the people I know at Nissan attached to the project say otherwise. It's always funny in this sport, how you could talk to four different people, and get five stories.

[knighty]

IES do have very good links with NISMO, a few years back they provided RollCentre dallara LMP900 engine, a V6 3.6 litre twin turbo engine which raced at LeMans, it was basically a NISMO engine from the japanese GT championship........anyway, the new LMP2 4.0 engine is based on the Nissan Infiniti 4.5L V8 mass productyion engine, which is refered to as the VK:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_VK_engine

The very same engine platform is being used in the Japanese GT championship .........hint hint........ so there is quite likley some parallels / tech transfer there between IES and NISMO, but if they are playing silly buggers and racing re-cast blocks to a different design to standard from the mass production items, they should expect to get into trouble if caught........but hey, I have seen plenty of other manufacturers do it openly, and the rule makers traditionally turn a blind eye to a big manufacturer programme.

But as far as the infiniti pro-deries engine is concerned, that thing was a cross-plane crank engine for a single seater on ovals, therefore the cams, crank, exhaust and intake system will be quite different......... but the blocks and heads could be useful. To be honest the pro-series engine was a horrid thing, considering it was a fully stressed engine, the bottom end was very flimsy and poorly designed, the sump was basically a cover, it should have included the main bearing caps to make it a fully rigid & stiff structure for a fully stressed installation........it was cheap at best........TWR had alot of engine failures!

From what I'm reading in June/July 2009 issue of race tech mag IES did a complete re-design from scratch, there is a 5 page technical article fully detailing the design process........but they could be being efficient with the truth!!!!

[ger80]

so what are the costs for a Judd engine then?

[tux1234]

Did they get a new chassis to fit the Nissan engine because i see there are two Radical rolling chassis for sale which appear to be the Eco racing diesel cars. http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listin...g_Chassis.html

The Nissan powered car looks good in the black and gold livery hope to see it on track at some point this season either in Lms or Alms.

[Panhard]

Judd has a new lease deal to keep up with the current economic climate.
An LMP2 endurance engine can be leased for 52,000 pounds stirling for LeMans. I am not sure what the season deal is maybe asking Judd?
What part of Essex you in Knighty??
I am a Hadleigh boy now in Florida

[Purist]

I was digging back through various websites looking up some old cars (Lotus 88, Brabham BT46, etc), and stumbled across another tidbit from Ian Dawson's past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vrE3yLqfe4

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Purist

I was digging back through various websites looking up some old cars (Lotus 88, Brabham BT46, etc), and stumbled across another tidbit from Ian Dawson's past.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vrE3yLqfe4

gotta love the tow start by the station wagon..

[JAG]

That's some rare footage, you hardly ever see that car running!

[isynge]

Fantastic find - some really nice footage.

The P351 may have had a legit claim to least successful BRM, if not least successful Group C car, but it was a very nice looking car.

Nice too to see Ian Dawson's penchant for tilting at windmills. For all the BRM did little or nothing on the track, I'd still have taken it in the bleak last year of Group C over the alternative of nothing at all.

[knighty]

Yeah, great find, turns out the 3.5L V12 engine supplied by Terry Hoyle (legendary engine builder, but not an engine designer) was actually the Weslake V12 that Harry Weslake designed for Ford back in the 70's....... when Ford got the jitters about ferraris V12 being too competitive in F1, so they comissioned Harry to design a 3.0 V12 to cover their options, turns out it was too heavy and not as powerful as the good old Cosworth DFV V8........all they did was enlarge it to 3.5 Litres for the group C car........I must say the car did look the part, but seems it always went pop too soon........you have to hand it to John Mangoletsi, looks like they had good intentions at heart.

spoke to Ian a few days ago, tested at snetterton again last week, the week before that at spa, the car and engine package is aparrently going great, no times though.