Too many starter formulas?

[Super Tourer]

If you've got an investor/sponsor who can back you up the ladder - good luck. It can be done but, cold sponsorship deals are in a minority in the overall scheme.

The question is, are there enough sponsors/investors to fund the 60 or 70 cars needed to make each series successful?

Paticularly in years 2 and 3 of FBMW

[Mackmot]

Konig and VW

[jonathanc]

Mackmot,
Perhaps you are right. Perhaps Euro-wide championships are needed to increase the competition and the grid sizes. Only problem being the costs

I'd love to do a euro wide championship at sensible cost.
Eg. 10-20k per year. Whether that is possible, Im not sure.

[Mackmot]

Big problem for Brritish drivers is that everybody is middle class. Most countries have a bigger difference between the rich and poor.

[Mackmot]

I wouldnt like to do a euro wide championship for 20k. I have business to run, I have mechanics to pay, a workshop to maintain, pay mortgage, I have my dads wages, my wages. I have to make the cars go fast by testing, track, wind tunnel, dynos. I need testing to teach drivers to be the best. How can it possibly be less money without taking something away from the cars and the driver.

[bella]

10-20k a year? are you joking? your travel costs would be more than that alone...

[Russfeld]

Euro-wide just get more expensive though. If the travel/tire bills are to be believed for the FRS Eurocup, its almost twice as much as a season in Britain. But when they had 53 cars at Spa that one year, good lord was that worth it.

[DSM]

On costs in general, from what I hear, the UK is the most expensive place to race in comparison with other European and American Countries. Eg the Fran Am was cheaper, per race, than FR over here. There was also a Swedish (?) FR Championship that was a lot less expensive too I believe. And wasn't BMW a lot less in other countries than it will be here next year?

Is this all true and if so why?

[Mackmot]

Exchange rate, cost of labour, fuel, tax, supplies

[Russfeld]

Id love to sit down with an economist and a long time team boss some day and plot inflation vs budgets vs changes in tech rules. I have a sneaking suspicion racing is getting more expensive every year for no real reason.

[Mackmot]

I think its about the same as it was from about 85 when things started turning more commercial and people had to start making things look nice in order to attract drivers and sponsors

[Russfeld]

I was reading something the other day that Ken Tyrrell won the F1 championship one year with Stewart (maybe the first title) on an operating budget of 100k. Stewart's salary was bigger than the team budget but was paid for by the team's sponsors as an additional deal.

I dont know that we could get a one-off at Minardi at the last minute with 100k.

[Mackmot]

I meant reletively stoopid

[DSM]

"I think its about the same as it was from about 85 when things started turning more commercial and people had to start making things look nice in order to attract drivers and sponsors"

Surely that would apply in all Countries?

"Exchange rate, cost of labour, fuel, tax, supplies"

Not really. Most of the cars we are talking about are being built abroad and the cost of those and spares would be lowered for the UK since the intro of the Euro.
I would doubt that labour rates here are higher than major European countries, unless they work outside of employment law, and other than fuel tax, taxes would be just as high.

[diz]

Originally posted by bella
it's not just straight forward 'my daddy knows you, give me your profits'.

But it could be "if you don't give me your profits, daddy will spend his pennies with your major competitor and you won't have your profits to give me - comprendez?"

[gttouring]

so many formulas are arresting good development everywhere- in NorthAmerica and Europe. FF is THE development series before moving on to Winged cars. It teaches car control, set up and racecraft in general, jumping into a series with downforce is a step past karts and a bit ore on the plate before actual controlled sliding and real foot work can be learned F BMW will end up being more expensive as the parts will just break off- someone told me the difference between FF2000 (bridgestone academy racers) and Formula Dodge (Skippy series) is that the FF2000 has more parts to break and pay for.
So FBMW will follow suit and have more to repair and more to payfor. what was wrong with the original ladders anyway? why does everyone want to make one for themselves instead of uasing different engines in different series' (FF1600, FBMW, FF2000, Fdodge2000, Fhonda1000, Fyamaha1000, Fmazda.........)

[crozier74]

There is another national single seater series in the UK that runs at a budget of around £10k a year, with similar performance level to FRenault - Formula Honda. The problem with this class is obviously that it's pretty damn low profile, so no teams/drivers take it as a serious step of the motorsport ladder.

But even if there were to be more high profile teams and drivers, it just means that they'd find some way of launching the costs through the roof like they do in every other class.

Unfortunately, it appears there is very little that can be done to reduce costs in motorsport. Teams will always think that spending more money is directly linked to improved performance, and in many cases it is. When was the last time you saw a privateer sponsored by the local welders running out of the back of a trailer win an F3/FFord/FRenault race?

I do agree about there being too many classes. FBMW is a mistake - it's basically identical to FRenault. FZip is also a bit too underpowered to be of much point, you're better just going into FFord.

The MSA's new ladder system is a very good idea, but as they have already said there is a worrying lack of "open" classes. Although these might not provide a level playing field for aspiring future stars, they do deserve to be a part of the motorpsort world. Competing chassis and engine manufacturers add even more drama to a series. If there is to be a new single seater feeder category in the UK, it should be an "open" series to fill these gaps.

If I was ever to move into cars (and I've considered doing so within the next 2-3 years), my main choice would be Formula Ford. For any young driver in the UK wanting to make it all the way, with an unlimited supply of money and talent, I guess the following would be an ideal route (taking in all the major steps and not skipping stages like Raikkonen, and going on current grid sizes and quality):

Honda Cadet
Formula Junior TKM
Formula Rotax 125 Max
Formula Ford Zetec
Formula Renault
Formula 3
Formula Nissan
Formula 1

[littleman]

A ladder of the junior formula's is fine,but surely we should have a ladder for the drivers as well,which ensures the talented ones DO move up the rungs.If a formula wants to gain a recognised status,such as FBMW or FR,then it should be made a condition of acceptance,that their champion will be fully funded by them to participate on the next rung of the ladder the following year.Why should one-make championships (manufacturers) be allowed to enjoy all the promotional commercial benefits of their formula and then hang the drivers out to dry?

[Bobie]

How much does a season of Formula Ford cost?

[Woolley]

Regardless of the costs, it is yet another series spreading the drivers and the marshals ever thinner at a time when British Motorsport desparately needs to reduce the number of series. The best way of attracting sponsors surely is to have one fully supported series with packed grids to entertain their guests.

If BMW wish to promote themselves, let them enter engines in F3 or cars in BTCC. If they wish to shy away from other marks, then let them put their money up and subsidise the drivers to run in their series, thus ensuring talent not money is the deciding factor. And just in case anyone suggests this is a typical anti-BMW thing, I own one! My message would be the same to all manufacturers and chassis builders.

[Bobie]

What about Jonathan Palmers - Palmer Audi series is that any good?

[Russfeld]

It used to be the best, most fair series out there. But no one in racing is looking for fair (not that I blame them) so the industry basically killed it off.

[crozier74]

It was when Wilson was in it, but has now faded away to nearly club level, with small and low quality grids.

[Bobie]

So Formula Ford is better then? Still would like to knwo how much as season would be.

[bella]

much better. fpalmer is a good low cost series for businessmen with a few quid to chuck away, but it's just a bandwagon-uniform series.

mind you, i guess it might teach a young driver what it's like to beat people.