[Driver] Nico vs Michael

[davyboy]

I see the hoards of anti-Schumacher posters are having a field day here. Why don't you guys just set up a new thread entitled 'I hate Michael Schumacher because...' that way, the facts don't matter at all.

Schumacher didn't have a good weekend but the overiding reasons contributing to that were bad car set-up and poor strategy on tyres. However, all but a few posters in the last few pages here claim that it was down to his driving alone.

[pannenmann]

A wrong car setup is the fault of the driver. So is the tyre wear, when your teammate apparently does better than you. Schumi was never a racer like Alonso or Hamilton to me, so it is much more devastating for him that he can't get these kind of things to work. The things he used to be supreme at.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Schumacher didn't have a good weekend but the overiding reasons contributing to that were bad car set-up and poor strategy on tyres. However, all but a few posters in the last few pages here claim that it was down to his driving alone.

Rosberg was able to keep his tires and set up his car in a way that enabled him to get points and not be a hazard to others. No reason why Michael shouldn't. It is down to him I am afraid.

[pannenmann]

Plus, if it wasn't that bad and he just had bad luck, why was he really annoyed after the race? Never seen him in a mood like that before. I expect seeing him crying behind a safety fence this season

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by davyboy

I see the hoards of anti-Schumacher posters are having a field day here. Why don't you guys just set up a new thread entitled 'I hate Michael Schumacher because...' that way, the facts don't matter at all.

I wish people would stop claiming that anyone disagreeing with them has an agenda. I don't really have a strong opinion either way about Schumacher, but he was bobbins yesterday.

[chunterer]

He did a reasonable impression of Andrea De Cesaris in his pomp! Quite strong early in proceeedings and thenafter some trouble resorted to wobbling about all over the place and generally getting in peoples way.

The only thing he didn't do 'De Crasher' like was actually stuff it in the wall.

[RF_Racer]

Originally Posted by pannenmann

A wrong car setup is the fault of the driver. So is the tyre wear, when your teammate apparently does better than you. Schumi was never a racer like Alonso or Hamilton to me, so it is much more devastating for him that he can't get these kind of things to work. The things he used to be supreme at.

Err, do you remember how aweful Alonso looked in the Renault in 2008 and 2009? And the mistakes he made?.. In Germany? people have short memories, further more they think they are experts and could do a better job! Too many ignorant folks here!

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by RF_Racer

further more they think they are experts and could do a better job! Too many ignorant folks here!

If this is the argument then we may as well close down this forum because I don't think anyone on here can claim to be an expert although I know a few that will try.

We are for the most part armchair fans who are commentating on a race. MS was utterly atrocious yesterday. End off. When he has a good race I don't think anyone on here will have any qualms about praising him.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

We are for the most part armchair fans who are commentating on a race. MS was utterly atrocious yesterday. End off. When he has a good race I don't think anyone on here will have any qualms about praising him.

Yes, bang on.

Whilst I am sure that there many people who want Schu to fail, there are equally as many who will shower him with praise if/when he does a good job.

In fact he did a great job at the start of the race before falling back - most of us have noted that.

It's like when JPM was around, I still just about managed to admit when he had poor races even though he my fave' driver and Schu is my least fave.'

[Schummy]

Michael has now a 40 points deficit to NR. With 11 races to go it is a not easy task to do. In statistical terms, that task is approximately equivalent to get +12.1 points respect Rosberg in one race. Until now, the maximum difference MS has got over Nico in one race is 12 points in Spain.

In comparison, Alonso has +27 with Massa, Webber +13 against Vettel and Hammy +3 with Button.

[beau1]

Originally Posted by Schummy

Michael has now a 40 points deficit to NR. With 11 races to go it is a not easy task to do. In statistical terms, that task is approximately equivalent to get +12.1 points respect Rosberg in one race. Until now, the maximum difference MS has got over Nico in one race is 12 points in Spain.

In comparison, Alonso has +27 with Massa, Webber +13 against Vettel and Hammy +3 with Button.

A team can lose a game of rugby despite having 70% of possession and territory. A team in football can lose after having 20 shots compared with 2 from their opposition.
The points statistics don't tell you that Schumacher has had a puncture, one retirement, and a broken front wing (due to no fault of his own). Whilst Nico in comparison has quietly been gaining points with no drama apart from having to slow down and lose a lot of positions at Canada.

[NITRO35]

Too old, TOo old, TOO old, TOO Old, TOO OLd, TOO OLD...

[Schummy]

Originally Posted by beau1

A team can lose a game of rugby despite having 70% of possession and territory. A team in football can lose after having 20 shots compared with 2 from their opposition.
The points statistics don't tell you that Schumacher has had a puncture, one retirement, and a broken front wing (due to no fault of his own). Whilst Nico in comparison has quietly been gaining points with no drama apart from having to slow down and lose a lot of positions at Canada.

I was not claiming anything apart from the points deficit in my post. But along a whole season, to resort to continued bad luck is a poor excuse if the deficit is greater than certain amount. By the way, Nico has had his part of troubles as well.

I'd like to know what is exactly in the mind of Ross Brawn. He is a practical guy, he knows a lot about racing and he knows Michael's skills very deeply. I'm sure he has a pretty exact (and private) assessment of what is happening.

Some races will go to MS, others will go to NR but we soon will reach the season middle point and so far this team mate "battle" doesn't favor Schumacher.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Schummy

I'd like to know what is exactly in the mind of Ross Brawn. He is a practical guy, he knows a lot about racing and he knows Michael's skills very deeply. I'm sure he has a pretty exact (and private) assessment of what is happening.

Some races will go to MS, others will go to NR but we soon will reach the season middle point and so far this team mate "battle" doesn't favor Schumacher.

The number one problem Mercedes Benz have right now is their car, not Michael Schumacher. Do we seriously believe that the Mercedes would now be at the sharp end of the points standings had Schumacher's seat been filled by Lewis, Vettel or Alonso ? Ross Brawn's attention first and foremost will be on getting that car quicker. So, with that in mind, he has one of the best development drivers there is as part of his equipe.

If/when the car does become fully competitive... Ross will have a hard charging Rosberg trail-blazing and a wily old fox Schumacher pushing him.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The number one problem Mercedes Benz have right now is their car, not Michael Schumacher. Do we seriously believe that the Mercedes would now be at the sharp end of the points standings had Schumacher's seat been filled by Lewis, Vettel or Alonso ? Ross Brawn's attention first and foremost will be on getting that car quicker. So, with that in mind, he has one of the best development drivers there is as part of his equipe.

If/when the car does become fully competitive... Ross will have a hard charging Rosberg trail-blazing and a wily old fox Schumacher pushing him.

I admire your optimism.

[Massa_number1]

I really dont get everyones attitude to this including the pundits OK granted I dont claim to know more than them or anyone else on here but it does feel that some people are ignoring certain facts

schumacher made a great start very good reaction to the incidents in front of him

schumacher got out in front of Kubica and fought like hell to stay there

if it wasnt for the incident with kubica he might have finished really well..

he did over 30 laps on the same tyres people said his lap times were off by 4 seconds but he was trying to make them last even nico said he was conserving tyres but no matter what he did they grained so imagine 30 laps

he was over taken near the end by 3 cars that were in the top 5 for all the speed traps ok nico didnt but then would have schumacher but for the incident with kubica have found himself in this position

i dont deny there was some bad moments for him but he was forced into this position and bar quali he was doing a great job until the kubica incident in a car that was hard on its tyres and not very good top speed

still it always makes for a better story when certain facts are ignored and made light of in my opinion he was forced into a position through one mistake and got punished badly on another day he might just have got away with it and finshed in front of nico ..all if's and buts u might say but the fact theres an argument means he still has the ability given the circumstances

[Schummy]

Where fits in the rosy story the throwing out of others' cars?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Schummy

Where fits in the rosy story the throwing out of others' cars?

Whose car was 'thrown out' ? If Schumacher did indeed 'throw another's car out', surely he would have been investigated and reprimanded at the very least. He wasn't. His driving was aggressive, but that's what he needed to do in order to preserve his race position. If he let people walk by him, he would have been slated for that too.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by davyboy

The number one problem Mercedes Benz have right now is their car, not Michael Schumacher. Do we seriously believe that the Mercedes would now be at the sharp end of the points standings had Schumacher's seat been filled by Lewis, Vettel or Alonso ?

I don't believe anyone is saying that it would be at the sharp end with other drivers, but to say Michael is not part of the problem is false. The Michael we all knew from a few years ago would have the upperhand on his team mate, no matter how good or bad the car is, end of arguement.

If Merc turn up with the best car at Turkey, i don't think that suddenly Michael will be dominating Nico!

[Hf_Integrale]

I don't think Michael has any problem in beating Nico. Get serious... little Rosberg is not champ-material! His times are rubbish and he got a beating from Michael in some of the recent runs. Lets be fair: Michael (whom I'm not a fan of!) is doing well for his condition. Nico, on the other hand, is doing bad. He should be at least fighting with Kubica, I think.

[chunterer]

Reasonable suggestion about Nico from HF Integrale.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Hf_Integrale

I don't think Michael has any problem in beating Nico. Get serious...

Then why isn't he? Just out of interest.

[Hf_Integrale]

But he is (Remember Istanbul?)! Just not constantly, yet. It's just a matter of time, I think...
But why do you think is Nico not "upping" his game?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Reasonable suggestion about Nico from HF Integrale.

I would sort of agree with this but I don't think its quite as clear cut. The sparring between the two is still too difficult to read. The car's not where it should be and the development programme's not going as well as the Red Bull and the Mercedes. The reason for this is that Mercedes Benz have had no continuity from last year... compounded by a 'past his best' Schumacher getting up to speed driving an F1 car with no testing ! Both drivers have had too many bad finishes or DNFs - some the result of their own making, others just down to bad luck. We may not get a clear comparison on the two of them at all this year.

[phoenix]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Whose car was 'thrown out' ? If Schumacher did indeed 'throw another's car out', surely he would have been investigated and reprimanded at the very least. He wasn't. His driving was aggressive, but that's what he needed to do in order to preserve his race position. If he let people walk by him, he would have been slated for that too.

His aggression against Kubica cost him a puncture which meant two tyre stops within a couple of laps or so and meant he had to try to make his last set - the option tyre - last a long, long way. That is not my interpretation - it is what his team managment have said in print since.

It was his mistake to tangle with Kubica and no one elses. The punishment for that mistake was self-fulfilling and did not require the intervention of the Stewards.

To me he seems to be a one trick pony - that is to be super aggressive on track whatever the situation. It is proving not to be the most intelligent way to do well when racing in the mid field..... And to me that is the surprise - that he is not behaving in the intelligent way we have all been used to.