Seat pulling out of BTCC

[andy97]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I don't post in here very often, although I do read the forum. I'm afraid this is a direct consequence of making championships manufacturer based. I fully expect to see many more situations like this due the the economic downturn.

It may be time to re write the regs in order to make it more privateer friendly and less mega bucks technology orientated. Otherwise, what is to me a dying category, will really go the way of the dodo.

Maybe F1 should think carfully about whether it wants to be manufacturer reliant!

[Peter Mallett]

Agreed and it is a connection but I suspect it will hit the touring cars first being at the lower end of the market. Winning in F1 is more internationally newsworthy so from that POV I suspect Bernie has another year or so.

However that said, if it is as I suggest, it may be an opportunity to get back to what touring cars should be. F'rinstance the spec gearboxes etc. may be cheap on the basis of production numbers but the modifications to the car to take them and the other standard parts is an unnecessary cost. What's cheaper, putting in a straight cut C/R gear set or buying a whole new gearbox?

[touringlegend]

Peter, I don't think the BTCC is doing too badly. There are only 5 works cars this year and about 15 privateers.

Compared to 10, 12 years ago when that was the other way round I am hopeful of the continued success of the BTCC. Crowds and TV figures are apparently healthy.

[werner]

A manufacturer-competition is still possible. Just award the first 2 cars of any brand with points, works or indy. So If the Dynamics-boys or the Jordans do well, Honda will get points, and if WSR, M-sport or Motorbase win, BMW will get the points. The only problem would be who to ask for the award-winning ceremonie, as there may be nobody at the office of the winning manufacturer that had anything to do with the win.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

Peter, I don't think the BTCC is doing too badly. There are only 5 works cars this year and about 15 privateers.

Compared to 10, 12 years ago when that was the other way round I am hopeful of the continued success of the BTCC. Crowds and TV figures are apparently healthy.

Fair comment. I won't hold my breath though.

[BootsOntheSide]

Alan Gow's statement that SEAT "has decided that motor sport (in general) does not form part of its future plans, for now" suggests that the WTCC programme might be for the chop, and that the BTCC pullout might simply be a consequence of this. I can understand why this has happened - the BTCC story has been a case of a disorganised team throwing success away due to silly rulebook infringements and far too many mechanical failures, and the negative publicity regarding diesel doesn't make them look good.

Hopefully Plato can sort something out for next year, and a few SEATs will continue to run independently. TOCA could do with a direct replacement for the Cupra Cup as well, but that might have to wait until 2010.

[werner]

I've calculated what the standings in the manufacturers-championhsip would be if it was done the way I wrote above this year:

1. Vauxhall 523pts.
2. Seat 449pts.
3. BMW 440pts.
4. Honda 323pts.
5. Chevrolet 52pts.
6. MG 35pts.

[werner]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

Alan Gow's statement that SEAT "has decided that motor sport (in general) does not form part of its future plans, for now" suggests that the WTCC programme might be for the chop, and that the BTCC pullout might simply be a consequence of this.

I could be the case (wich I hope offcourse) that motorsport is not a part of the plans of SEAT UK.

[andy97]

A friend of mine only commented to me the other day that it was amazing that Seat had managed to develop a sporty and even aspirational brand image from where it was 20 odd years ago (the era of the Seat Ritmo's etc built under licence). They have become akin to Alfa as a sporty brand and their motorsport activities, back to the days of the F2 Rally success and associated marketing, must be a major part of that.

[davyboy]

This is sad but not surprising. You need to consider that the diesel development programme allied to a top-line works effort would have been hugely expensive. In a weak economic climate, I'm sure this would be one of the first things to consider for the chop by SEAT management.

Which draws the whole WTCC participation into question. I would not be surprised if SEAT bow out of that too... which would then force BMW to question their presence [if they aren't already for their own reasons] and Chevrolet too.

We are entering lean times for the car industry and expensive works-led touring car programmes will not be top of the agenda for auto companies to perpetuate.

Peter's right... the powers that be in touring car racing need to take a close look at their series and make them as independent friendly as possible.

[Armchair Enthusiast]

I think that my post regarding a VW Scirocco tintop series in Germany (http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109051) is very apt with regards to this because as we all know, SEAT is part of the same group and so if VAG have recognised the increased marketing opportunities the BTCC offers with better tv coverage and popularity, etc, I could easily see them ditching the old car for a new car to help the introduction and boost sales.

I predict a VW will be in the BTCC very soon......

[graham bahr]

personnally i thinks its more to do with cutting costs,

the vag group is very big, and duplicates itself interms of a lot of its costs due to running so many different brands of the same thing, when i was doing the VW breakdown cover, it was obvious to us they were cutting costs in certain areas, which was no suprise to us as we knew they weren't anything like as profitable as they would of liked/hoped to of been

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Armchair Enthusiast

I think that my post regarding a VW Scirocco tintop series in Germany (http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109051) is very apt with regards to this because as we all know, SEAT is part of the same group and so if VAG have recognised the increased marketing opportunities the BTCC offers with better tv coverage and popularity, etc, I could easily see them ditching the old car for a new car to help the introduction and boost sales.

I predict a VW will be in the BTCC very soon......

Not so sure on that one, the Scirocco is always going to be a relatively low volume niche product for VW and the economy of scale relative to the investment required will not be viable around a BTCC campaign IMO.

More likely (if anything) would be a VAG WTCC assault as this touches on lots of different markets with a better return on investment.

Regarding the point about better TV coverage, although the coverage is longer and LIVE it is also solely on satellite with a vastly smaller audience and is less likely to pick up new and casual viewers than being on the main ITV channel - all this adds to the ROI equation for manufacturers.

[Thorney]

How about no official 'works' teams at all but manufacturers allowed to give an agreed level of support to independant race teams. Manufacturers care about two things - success and image (and equate the two sometimes too closely) and in times of economic growth the cost to achieve these things gets absorbed. However at the moment we are in a time of economic uncertainty and as a result manufacturers aren't exactly in rude health to blow it all on shiny cars that 'may' sell more metal. Depending on who you believe SEAT and Vauxhall spend an average of £4-5m on BTCC, seeing as its a two horse race that doesn't really represent much of a good investment. However its about £250,000-400,000 to run an independant car in BTCC (depending again on who you talk to) which in terms of TV coverage gets almost the same amount of exposure.

So, how about the manufacturers invest £500,000 into three teams each, cash, parts, support whatever. The independants then have a little more freedom to either subsidise drives for talent at the same time spend their own hard earned sponsorship money on development sharing said data with the manufacturer which may or may not have any value. What you have then is a championship where there are some teams with more money than others but not the current chasm that is represented by works and non works. If you look at the racing (due in part to the regs on racing) the top independants aren't a million miles behind the works anyway and regularly beat them if things go well.

Part of that £500,000 contract pays for near complete livery so the manufacturers get all the imagery, publicity they need for a fraction of the cost but leaves enough room on the cars for the teams to raise their own funding, getting sponsorship for a part manufacturer funded car is a lot easier than an independant as well.

You see I see it from a team owners pov, we hope to be in BTCC in two years time under our own steam an dI have huge respect for those teams in it without manufacturer support but if a manufacturer went up to WSR for example and said, "run a pair of SEATS and we'll give you £500,000" I can't see RAC bailing out.

I'm with Werner, the fact that one of the full factory squads has pulled out does not mean the series is dead, but it will need to change how it sees manufacturers to keep their involvement if not their huge investment.

[Icebaby]

I donmt think having a series full of "Independants" paying for their drives is the way forward, some deserve to be there on merit and other are just in it for some Sunday exposure and thats never going to sell it.

[Armchair Enthusiast]

You don't think the SEAT CUPRA CUP will be replaced by a VW SCIROCCO CUP????? Ok, so what are Northern South going to do now? I can't believe they are potentially having such a lucrative project taken away from them without being offered something else, or being involved in something else.....

[Thorney]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

I donmt think having a series full of "Independants" paying for their drives is the way forward, some deserve to be there on merit and other are just in it for some Sunday exposure and thats never going to sell it.

Thats my point, with some factory funding there is still the capacity for the better teams and drivers to shine but without the big bills that factories tend to drag along.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

I donmt think having a series full of "Independants" paying for their drives is the way forward, some deserve to be there on merit and other are just in it for some Sunday exposure and thats never going to sell it.

No that's not what it means. Pay drivers may always be around but if the cars are more like their road car counterparts instead of being basically silhouettes with high tech internals, you'd get variety and independent teams like WSR building them. It may be back to its roots time.

I'm not for one minute suggesting the championship is struggling but you just have to look at the world market (Japan announced today that its suffering) and you can see if nobody wants to buy a car why bother promoting it?

Cheaper to put support into a private team who can do all the work and, like Ford used to do, feed off the back of that.

But you do need simpler regs for that to happen.

[Thorney]

Yep. Lets face it from a spectator point of view we'd all like hoards of full factory teams out there but the commercial aspects of life mean that that just wont happen. What also wont happen is one manufacturer being on his own in a series with a bunch of independants, I mean if they win its a case of "well of course they should...they're factory" and if they lose they're a laughing stock (unfairly). My suggestion was a pragmatic one and does work, look at V8 Supercars in Oz, there are factory supported teams but no one single Holden or Ford team (although they all will suggest otherwise to some extent). Now it works quite simply with two manufacturers but I see no reason why it cant work with multi brand.

As regards costs, look at BMW. They make good money from selling S2000 320si cars (and if you look at the BMW motorsport catalogue, you'd think they were makiing billions from the daft prices they charge for parts) and then you have SEAT and Vauxhall plouging millions into same grid - doesn't make commercial sense.

There are plenty of drivers with almost the budget (and even some with the talent) for BTCC so add a bit of investment into the teams and they could afford to subsidise drives with semi factory support but still run it commercially, bottom line factory teams are not run commercially, ie they have no revenue aims - that isn't a model that works well in economic downturns.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Thorney

..... bottom line factory teams are not run commercially, ie they have no revenue aims - that isn't a model that works well in economic downturns.

Very well put.

[touringlegend]

I can only see the suits in the manufacturers board meetings of being extremely wary of handing out cash to independant teams like that. I think they are very concious of the fact half hearted support can look as bad as it does good on them.

[sceptic]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

They still need a major sponser to pull this off and there in short supply unless Seat are to cut a deal.

Team RAC is not an option as they will again need a paying driver in the second car, Andy Neate a possible this time although I still think Chilton's in with a chance with his cash if Neal returns to Dynamics.

It still amazes me the effect a bit of well spun PR can have.

Six months have passed since Andy Neate sent out a press release saying he narrowly missed getting a drive with Team RAC - and people still believe it.

According to the team, Neate was never in the running. He is an unproven driver who didn't have anywhere near the required budget. Team RAC was talking to both Jones and Collard pre-season, although they both found better deals elsewhere.

Going back on topic: Matt Neal is staying at VXR next season. That is confirmed. If VXR run a third car, whoever drives it will need to take a budget with them - so it's not going to be Plato.

Northern South could run a private SEAT (or any other car) for Plato... but they are going to need a million pounds to do so (and that's if JP takes a pay cut), so I think we can safely rule that possibility out.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

I can only see the suits in the manufacturers board meetings of being extremely wary of handing out cash to independant teams like that. I think they are very concious of the fact half hearted support can look as bad as it does good on them.

Even more reason to get back to basics. Those manufacturers are not staying, take my word for it.

[FIRE]

Why a pay cut? He's still having a contact with SEAT UK. Normally they have to pay him in the next 2 seasons.

[Thorney]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

I can only see the suits in the manufacturers board meetings of being extremely wary of handing out cash to independant teams like that. I think they are very concious of the fact half hearted support can look as bad as it does good on them.

Actually from a commercial point of view it makes perfect sense, indeed we in the independant sector (lol) already are used to performance related support. With a facory team its an internal process, marketing and sales present to the board saying gimme gimme gimme, the accountants draw shap intkaes of breath and shake their heads, somewhere in between the agree an amount. The manufacturer then takes this slug of cash and gives it to a thrid party (888 for vxl, North and South for SEAT) and says, please win. There is no direct correlation between the benefit to the business (the manufacturer) and the amount of cash they farm out.

With an independant we can structure a contract that relates to car sales, ie the team gets £250,000 and if by a certain point sales of a certain model hit a certain point then a % over rider can be paid. It can also be directly related and amalgamated with performance bonus's. The important bit is that the team remain hungry and independantly funded to want to get more. With a factory team (I'm generalising here of course so dont take offence) they know the bills will be paid, win or lose they will get a monthly payment so over time their need to find other revenue in sponsors pales. I mean whats the point going out and finding other sponsors, who cares the manufacturer will pay the bill anyway. Indeed what third party sponsors factory teams have are factory sought and generated. Holiday Inn was a Vauxhall deal not a 888 one. Pogo Alert is a Vauxhall deal not 888, you dont really think 888 went along to GMAC and asked for money do you?

I dont blame the factory teams, indeed I am evidently envious, but giving them a little less and spreading the jam a little wider would keep them all keen and hungry to win both on track and in terms of promotion - exactly what the manufacturer wants.