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16 Oct 2012, 23:06 (Ref:3153110) | #51 | ||
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Hopefully they will come back. The real point is that Renault would see that they have an advantage over their current F1 competitors Merc and Ferrari. Any other entrant would have a big technical backlog to overcome to be competitive. Probably why the rev limit has been lowered, to encourage others. With due respect, there is a huge difference between BTCC and F1, so that experience is of limited value. |
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17 Oct 2012, 00:57 (Ref:3153138) | #52 | ||
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But, in general, when it comes to turbos, most F1 engine manufacturers tend to not do them 'in-house'. KKK, Garrett, etc, tend to get the job. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Cosworth and PURE, will all be looking at outsourcing their turbo requirements for 2014. Honda, on their 80's F1 turbo engines, used IHI turbos! |
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17 Oct 2012, 01:49 (Ref:3153144) | #53 | ||
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17 Oct 2012, 09:28 (Ref:3153277) | #54 | |
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17 Oct 2012, 09:41 (Ref:3153282) | #55 | |
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17 Oct 2012, 11:00 (Ref:3153302) | #56 | |
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Oops you're right, but look what happened when they changed engines!
So i'll still back Renault as the pre-eminent engine builder. I did qualify my original statement with currently in F1 though. Last edited by wnut; 17 Oct 2012 at 11:10. |
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17 Oct 2012, 11:59 (Ref:3153324) | #57 | ||
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I don't see the logic in Webber to Ferrari at all. It's one of the several drums Mr Saward likes to bang on along with Liuzzi is underrated and karma is going to hit Mallya. Surely Ferrari are placing the Hulk at Sauber with an eye on signing him for Ferrari from 2014 if the Vettel deal falls through. Why else would Nico move from one solid midfield team to another? |
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17 Oct 2012, 12:02 (Ref:3153326) | #58 | ||
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Are Sauber really so closely tied to Ferrari these days, or just an engine customer?
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17 Oct 2012, 12:27 (Ref:3153334) | #59 | ||
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Although, we may see a couple of STR's also being driven 'strategically'. I'd like to think that Sauber don't owe Ferrari any money for their engine supply, and it will therefore keep the conspiracy theorists at bay. One can only hope. Hulk going from a Mercedes engined car to a Ferrari engined car is a possible sign that he isn't going to Mercedes, McLaren or Red Bull, I would have thought. |
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17 Oct 2012, 12:27 (Ref:3153336) | #60 | |||
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17 Oct 2012, 13:23 (Ref:3153347) | #61 | ||
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I wonder what the emphasis on the RB being an Adrian Newey designed car is all about. He hasn't won a title between 1998 and 2010. Does that mean the drivers who had Newey cars then were no good because one is pretty much certain to win in one? It's true that Vettel owes much of his success to the quality of the car but then so does every single WDC in F1 history.
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17 Oct 2012, 15:03 (Ref:3153373) | #62 | ||
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To be fair, the first few years at Red Bull were unlikely to result in championship success as the team built up its infrastructure for a championship. Furthermore, with the exception of 2004, the final McLarens were reasonably competitive.
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17 Oct 2012, 15:36 (Ref:3153383) | #63 | ||
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Exactly, maybe my question wasn't particularly clear. What I meant to say is that I feel like never before has the success of a team been associated so much with who the chief engineer is. I don't mean to say that's not justified as success in F1 is maybe 80% or so about the car. I just don't remember people going as crazy about Rory Byrne when MS dominated in the Ferrari and did so even more than Vettel did in the 2011 RB.
Now it seems a lot of people want to take away some of Vettel's glory by going on and on about how important Newey is. He is, alright, but it wasn't talked about as much when for example Hakkinen was WDC in a Newey car, or so it seems to me. |
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17 Oct 2012, 15:57 (Ref:3153391) | #64 | |||
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All i will say is, the genius Adrian Newey built a car that was capable of 12 wins last year, yet Sebastian took 11 of them and Mark's came about because Seb has "gearbox problems" dispite setting fastest laps. You can have the best car out there, but if you don't have a driver capable of delivering results, its pointless. |
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17 Oct 2012, 16:20 (Ref:3153407) | #65 | ||
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Newey appeals to the inner nerd of a cross-section of motorsport fandom. He's quiet, thoughtful, intelligent, still actually draws his designs on paper and seems to be able to conjure up brilliant design ideas from thin air. Red Bull's marketing people realised that they had a marketing gem - OK, a niche one - so brought him to be more in the public eye. I'm not sure Newey is too comfortable with it, but they're paying him top dollar to indulge his design fantasies and see if they work, so I think he's accepting of it. |
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17 Oct 2012, 16:46 (Ref:3153421) | #66 | |||
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17 Oct 2012, 17:15 (Ref:3153438) | #67 | |
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I appreciate his reputation goes back a long way; the point was tgat RBR are the first team he's worked for who have used him in such a public way.
It's only a small contribution to the car/driver/designer debate, but a relevant one |
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18 Oct 2012, 15:35 (Ref:3153902) | #68 | |||
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But I also accept that Newey is supremely talented also and his teammate is painfully average. Quote:
Mika Hakkinen, what a great and wonderful man. |
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19 Oct 2012, 02:55 (Ref:3154162) | #69 | |
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Newey enjoys the superlatives he does due to the rules of current F1. In years past you had different tyre performance, you had very different engine performance. Then you had aero and other innovations
In these days of F1 you cant engineer/develop a tyre/grip advantage with your tyre supplier through compounds and construction. You cant engineer more hp or drivability or economy over your competition due to engine freeze. It puts all the emphasis on aero which Newey is about the best. So its not fair to say its a geek, current thing...he significance has raised to public notoriety due to the lack of development in areas other than aero |
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19 Oct 2012, 04:38 (Ref:3154174) | #70 | ||
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On top of this Seb is probably the equal best driver in F1! (Alonso) |
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19 Oct 2012, 07:28 (Ref:3154206) | #71 | |
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Point being tyres, engines and electronics are all tightly regulated. That's why we read so much about Newey at present and his responsibility for RBRs pace. RBR have all the ingredients at the moment,...funding, engineering, driving and they seem as good as any with smarts/race strategy.
In the past you heard loads about Bridgestone and Ferrari success. Renault and Honda engines, Ferrari engines. No Newey car using a Peugeot engine on the lesser competitive tyres etc etc were going to do the job. Hell Hill and Arrows almost won the Hungarian GP due to the Bridgestone tyres being in "the zone" on that day The need to be strong in all areas remains, but there are less external variables to control and design to so think the ability of Newey and the people around shines through these days. Last edited by OZ_HCR32; 19 Oct 2012 at 07:34. |
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20 Oct 2012, 09:59 (Ref:3154758) | #72 | |||
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For me, this means that you have to have the optimum package: Team, Designer, Driver and Factory. Execution is everything. The design has to be right. It has to be properly carried out. It has to be properly built/maintained and finally, it needs a driver who can optimize the resulting package. We saw this with Ferrari during Michael's time there. The best constructed and best operating team provided the best car to a driver who optimized it. At the moment, we see this at RBR with Vettel. His second, Webber, has shown speed but has not seen the top step often enough. Based on his performance though, I would say that Webber is not "average" and certainly has extracted more from the car than Rubens did with the Ferrari. While I believe that in today's F1 "the car is the star," in order to gain optimum results (i.e. WCC/WDC titles) then you HAVE to have the best driver available to get those results. This is why Ferrari got Alonso although Ferrari have been unable to pull the rest of the organization together like RBR has. We have seen, though that Alonso is indeed capable of extracting the maximum from the car. Much as I like Alonso, I have to give Seb his due: He is the best in the business right now driving fro what may be the best team in the business right now. |
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20 Oct 2012, 10:52 (Ref:3154785) | #73 | |
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I don't know if he's the best, but the perception of him doesn't give him his due. I think it's because ultimately there are still small doubts whether he could dig quite as deep as an Alonso or a Hamilton. He does deserve more credit though. If he gets a third consecutive title for his first three titles, he may start finally getting some.
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20 Oct 2012, 11:14 (Ref:3154791) | #74 | ||
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20 Oct 2012, 11:36 (Ref:3154799) | #75 | |
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Relative to Vettel perhaps, but Vettel is very, very good. Webber's like Button for me. Fantastic on his day, but frustratingly inconsistent. You wouldn't want to rely on either of them for your championship campaign, I'm afraid.
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