Who are the top 10 touring car drivers of all time?

[Peter Mallett]

The thing about Martin is his adaptability. He showed Stirling Moss how it was done in the Audi 80's (no mean feat) then won a few European races with Enzo Claderari and "Chuck" Nicolson in the XJS.

He also mixed it with the Americans in IROC. However I don't think he is considered a touring car driver by most because he dipped in and out. However IMO if you sat him in a car it would finish near, if not at, the front.

[feri]

Hans Jr. Stuck
Niki Lauda
Chris Amon
Tom Walkinshaw
Dieter Quester
Roberto Ravaglia
Hans Meyer
Ronnie Peterson
Brian Muir
Harard Ertl

[klaus]

the lists above are not respecting the old fighters of the 60ies
so, what about
Cris Craft
Frank Gardner
John Fitzpatrick (all in Escorts, Broadspeed, Cologne and Alan Mann)
Sir John Whitmore (remember his great Lotus-Cortina time)

and remember:
Peter Lindner .....and his Jaguar MK II

Hubert Hahne (first , who lapped the Ring under 10 minutes in a touring car)
Leo Cella (the forgotten Lancia driver)
Franco Patria (fastest Abarth driver till 1964)

John Rhodes ......and the Cooper

Andrea de Adamich .....hot rides in the GTA


and....and.....and.....?????????

[lj79]

Originally Posted by cavvy

Jackie Ickx used come to Australia & co drive with Allan Moffat At Bathurst - did he drive tourers in Europe (he hasnt been mentioned in this thread).
I saw Gerhad Berger give the Bob Jane Schnitzer BMW 635 a fair caning in Adelaide - most impressed - did he drive tourers often?

Berger drove infrequently for the Schnitzer team in 84-86 in ETCC, as well as Macua in 85. He partnered Quester, Ravaglia, Pirro, Capelli at various times.

Won Spa in 85 with Ravaglia and Marc Surer.

I dont recall him being as quick as Pirro, and in 84 when he was Ravaglia partner for the whole season the sister car (in the hands of Stuck) was quicker throughout the season.

[rbs]

Jacky Ickx drove Cortinas before his single seat days.

[alesi95]

Steve Soper is the greatest touring car driver and i really wish people would stop saying different.

[BlueBlood]

Originally Posted by MaxMotus

Top Ten Touring car drivers need to consist of the consistent top drivers... Not one season wonders!

So in no particular order the first top drivers to enter my head (maybe updated u c) are..

1) Hans Stuck
2) Bernd Schneider
3) Klaus Ludwig
4) Alain Menu
5) Laurant Aiello
6) Roberto Ravaglia
7) Frank Biela
8) Yvan Muller
9) Mark Skaife
10) Paul Radisich

To be good enough for the list a driver must have the skill and ability to do good with an average car. In other words, be able to drive around a cars problems. Andy Rouse is a great touring car name, but had his doors blown of by Radisich. Mark Skaife has been around a long time and is still a winner. While Alain Menu and Ivan Muller have some of the best car control which keeps em in there! If anyone chucks in Mike Smith or James Thompson, shoot em!

Mark Skaife still winning? did you sleep through 2004?

[lj79]

Originally Posted by alesi95

Steve Soper is the greatest touring car driver and i really wish people would stop saying different.

...but Walkinshaw, Hahne, Schlesser were regularly quicker than him the TWR Rovers.

[John Turner]

I'm a Steve Soper fan and clearly the reviewers in the February edition of MotorSport thought he was the best Tin Top driver. However, I'm not sure this really stands up to close scrutiny and a number of other contenders noted in this thread appear to have a stronger claim to the top spot.

[P.Cummins]

For me its:

1 Gabrieli Tarquini
2 Vincent Radermaker
3 Tom Chilton
4 Andy Rouse
5 Tim Harvey
6 Will Hoy
7 Paul Radisich
8 John Cleland
9 Steve Soper
10 Laurent Aiello

If I go into the people who just missed out its:

11 Matt Neal
12 David Leslie
13 Kelvin Burt
14 Patrick Watts
15 Richard Kaye
16 Matthias Ekstrom
17 Paul O Neill
18 Gavin Pyper
19 Nicola Larini
20 Fabrizio Giovanardi

[racer69]

Originally Posted by P.Cummins

For me its:

3 Tom Chilton

No offence, but surely your not serious.

[P.Cummins]

Why not? I think he is a real original driver. Compared to some of todays boring drivers, I think he livens up the races and is great to watch.

I am indeed serious. Why is there such a problem? I'm entitled to my opinion surely.

[Frank de Jong]

I agree completely. Neither Quester, Hezemans nor Ludwig ever shone in front wheel drive cars ;-)

[krt917]

Originally Posted by P.Cummins

Why not? I think he is a real original driver. Compared to some of todays boring drivers, I think he livens up the races and is great to watch.

I am indeed serious. Why is there such a problem? I'm entitled to my opinion surely.

You are indeed - I don't think recer69 was trying to be offensive - but you have to admit it's a weird choice. You may feel that Chilton has the potential to be a touring car great, but he simply hasn't achieved anything like enough yet to be considered, especially against some of the names that have already been mentioned.

I guess you could have a list of drivers who will be (or would have been great, if they did more touring car racing), but I rather like to stick to what has actually occurred. That's why I wouldn't yet put Andy Priaulx, even though I think he's one of the best tin-top talents around atthe moment, but in 10-15 years time maybe he will have achieved enough to be considered.

Ditto for Chilton.

[Nordic]

Peter Brock
Dieter Glemser
Roberto Ravaglia
Andy Rouse
Gerry Marshall
Frank Gardner
Hans Stuck
Gordon Spice
Dieter Quester
Martino Finotto

[krt917]

Those that immediately spring to mind, in no particular order:

Andy Rouse
Klaus Ludwig
Bernd Schneider
Peter Brock
Frank Gardner
Win Percy
Jim Clark
Laurent Aiello
Hans Stuck
Sir John Whitmore
Gordon Spice
Steve Soper

OK, so that's 12!

[racer69]

Originally Posted by P.Cummins

Why not? I think he is a real original driver. Compared to some of todays boring drivers, I think he livens up the races and is great to watch.

I am indeed serious. Why is there such a problem? I'm entitled to my opinion surely.

Not a problem at all, just i wouldn't have Tom Chilton anywhere near my Top 10 touring car drivers of all time, but thats just me.

[D-Type]

Just a thought. Does NASCAR count as touring cars?

Dale Earnhardt
Lee Petty
Fireball Roberts
etc

[gfm]

Soper got beaten at a GP support race by Peter Lovett in the Walkinshaw Rovers didn't he? Tell you who was good in saloons - James Weaver.
Shouldn't we have a pole now?

[cavvy]

Originally Posted by D-Type

Just a thought. Does NASCAR count as touring cars?

Dale Earnhardt
Lee Petty
Fireball Roberts
etc

They do to me & all of the above were greats.

[P.Cummins]

OK, no problem. I didnt base my choices on what the drivers have achieved. More so their race craft. if you put a driver who won 10 BTCC titles and was boring (IMO) to watch beside a one-off privateer who put on a great show and didnt come back, I would put the privateer in my top 10.

I base things on race craft and enjoyabilty. (If thats a word)

[lj79]

Me and my girlfriend enjoy watching Annie Templeton...

But seriously P Cummins, it is always fantastic when somebody stands out for REALLY giving it a go, whatever the circumstances.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by D-Type

Just a thought. Does NASCAR count as touring cars?

Dale Earnhardt
Lee Petty
Fireball Roberts
etc

And should we count the original trans-am? Afterall, Mustangs and Camaros appeared in British 'saloon' car racing. In which case, Parnelli Jones and Mark Donohue could be considered as well.

Originally Posted by P.Cummins

OK, no problem. I didnt base my choices on what the drivers have achieved. More so their race craft. if you put a driver who won 10 BTCC titles and was boring (IMO) to watch beside a one-off privateer who put on a great show and didnt come back, I would put the privateer in my top 10.

I base things on race craft and enjoyabilty. (If thats a word)

Fair enough, though I would argue that great race craft often leads to achievment. Sometimes a 'boring' driver is deceptive - they don't slide around or crash much, but seem to be good at winning. I think that's a great skill too.

[P.Cummins]

krt, you are right. Race craft does lead to achievement but, like I said, I really enjoy watching Chilton. He is not who I would class "boring" and from his driving at Knockhill (2004) alone, he has to be put there. He may not have achieved much but he has only been in the championship for 3 years (which being a late teenager may be a lot but on paper its not really).

John George isnt one who I would class "entertaining" and if he for example won a title or 2 or 3, I would care because if his driving in BTCC was a boring and dreary as it was this year (although we didnt get much coverage of him, and I am up for debate on this) he wouldnt be in my top 10. And NO, not because of his poor results. With a car that runs on farts I couldnt expect it.

[chunterer]

Couple of Italians

1/ Umberto Grano who used to share with Helmut Kelleners

2/ Gianfranco 'Branca' Brancatelli. In 80's was damn good in 635's, 240's and Sierra's. Only blot being the TWR Rover spell but he got shafted a bit there.

Surely these 2 guys are worthy contenders for the 20?

And Win Percy, too should have been on the MS list.

Multiple Brit champ in different cars and then as quick as anyone in and 'big' car he ever drove Capri (70's), Jag, Rover, Commodore, Sierra etc...