Drivers being sissies?

[Molotov]

Originally Posted by Purist

There's just one problem with trying to say oval racing is different. The F1 cars have been going through an oval turn at very nearly the speed of the IRL cars for 7 seasons now.

The big difference with F1 and oval racing is that if you go off in F1 you have a little run off area wich slows you down, then you hit the wall and you are pretty much safe there. In oval racing you have no gravel trap/tarmac so you hit the wall at a higher speed and then you bounce back on the race track where you risk being hit by a car going over 300 kph. IMO IRL is one of the most dangerous motorsport around, no matter how safe the cars are a well placed contact between a car stopped on the middle of the road and a car going full speed will most likely kill you.

These 2 videos pretty much proves that point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uBVwaaWIDU0

[Purist]

Molotov, I'm well aware of that. I knew Paul Dana, and checking the SPEED website on arriving back in my dorm after spring break was a very unpleasant surprise. However, your explanation still does not answer my point that F1 runs part of the oval at Indy, and are hitting 200+mph in oval Turn 1 (road course Turn 13).

[Molotov]

Originally Posted by Purist

Molotov, I'm well aware of that. I knew Paul Dana, and checking the SPEED website on arriving back in my dorm after spring break was a very unpleasant surprise. However, your explanation still does not answer my point that F1 runs part of the oval at Indy, and are hitting 200+mph in oval Turn 1 (road course Turn 13).

Indianapolis is probably one of the safest oval in the world, the track is wide, the barriers are extremly well made and most of the time when a driver crashes at indi he pretty much follows and guard rails and is not propeled right back into the racing lane. The fact that this corner is not really an overtaking spot also limits the chances of having a crash because unless you have catatrophic failure your not crashing there. In IRL they are often wheel to wheel and if one of the drivers make a mistake they both go flying. Perhaps the biggest factor is that in IRL you have poeple running the high, middle and low lane, meaning if you crash you have a lot more chances of getting hit. In F1 they all follow each other some what closesly in a single file line, if you crash there is a far lesser chance of getting hit by another car. It is obvious that this corner might be dangerous if all the conditions are right but this is only 1 corner in 1 race once a year, while IRL drivers race a season long on these types of race tracks.

Jacques Villeneuve said in a recent interview that he'd never race in the IRL because it's way too dangerous. This is the same guy who thinks F1 is too safe and the one who wants to race on the Nordshleife with an F1 car. This corner is fine and safe enough. In the rain it is a total different story because you can't really see well in front of you and can make it extremly dangerous.

[Eff One]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

With all the changes to slow F1 cars down, they aren't very slow these days compared to the past, are they?

No, but it has been made abundantly safer by other means. The cars are now much safer and absorb impact much more effectively, designed to bust up into pieces around the monocoque and absorb as much of the impact as possible. They also keep the driver well and truly strapped in the car better than ever. If Gilles Villeneuve had had his accident that killed him in one of today's F1 cars he would not have been thrown out and would have lived, for example.

Aside form that, as has been mentioned before, all the challenging corners that once "seperated the men from the boys" so to speak have disappeared or been changed so they can be taken flat-out without risk of consequence.

[Jordi]

Then perhaps the problem is not the tracks, but adapting the cars to them?

[V8_TURBO]

Quite possibly.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Spritle

They're sissies IMHO.

I say make the run off gravel in front, asphalt in back so you get the slowing effect closest to the barrier but you can't cheat the corner and get back on if you just run wide.

How long before Monaco gets stuffed with these girl drivers?

Either that or some form of polystyrene bollards in front of the kerbs, then tarmac runoff.

Something that can go in a crash, but if it hits it could damage a front wing.

[Purist]

Gravel is still probably the best option with out of control cars. A lot of the trouble you see with people skipping over gravel results from them having launched off of a curb first (Watkins Glen Turn 1), or the gravel travel is graded at a level lower than the track such that the cars can go over it if they're going quickly (Mid-Ohio at the end of the backstretch).

Molotov, Indy, in oval terms, is pretty narrow at only 50 feet. A lot of the other major ovals are 60-80 feet wide. And now, there are plenty of other ovals that have or are getting SAFER barriers.

Also, I'd say JV's comments about safety in IRL have more to do with the aero issues of the cars than the tracks. IRL cars have had more blowovers and serious lift-off crashes in the last six or seven seasons than any other major series. And just slowing the cars down 10-15mph has definitely NOT solved that problem.

[Rick]

Originally Posted by Nado

I dunno, if it is then I apologise, but there's absolutely no hint of sacarsm there, his closing argument even suggests (to me anyway) that he is serious.

sorry, could't find the sarcasm smiley! (Thought it was pretty clear!)

I'm not suggesting there has to be tarmac everywhere, but if the drivers, through the GPDA, identify a problem somewhere, then that's good enough for me.

There had been talk about the proximity of the wall where Senna was killed -
bloody shame the "sissies" hadn't insisted upon that being fixed. And before someone yells "hindsight" - it was brought up before the accident, but was put in the too hard basket.

[Purist]

Well, without diverting a river, adding substantial run-off to Tamburello as it was was impossible.

[Davhut]

Let's hear what Webber has to say about turning from daylight into Turn 1 at The Speedway at 230mph into shadows.
Or racing Rodriguez at Brands Hatch or Ickx at Nurburgring or Regazzoni at Monza or Moss at the Mille....
Earn your money. Sissies, and less.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Davhut

Let's hear what Webber has to say about turning from daylight into Turn 1 at The Speedway at 230mph into shadows.
Or racing Rodriguez at Brands Hatch or Ickx at Nurburgring or Regazzoni at Monza or Moss at the Mille....
Earn your money. Sissies, and less.

Yes at the same time why don't we speak to Alex Zanardi about super-speedways..

[Jordi]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

Yes at the same time why don't we speak to Alex Zanardi about super-speedways..

Alex didn't like them, but did not try to change them... He had a choice to race or not in a championship with superspeedways and decided to. Brave man.

[Molotov]

To anyone comparing F1 racing to ovals here is the list of recent deaths in each important series (F1, CART/IRL and NASCAR) from 1990 and up.

Nascar: 10 deaths, all on ovals

IRL/CART/USAC: 6 deaths, 2 on road course, 4 on ovals.

F1: 2 deaths, all on road course.

I would have liked to find stats for the WRC but I couldn't. Obviously F1 is one of the safest motor sport around, I don't see why drivers want to change relatively safe race tracks when other drivers race on much more dangerous tracks(ovals and rally for example). I don't want to see drivers injured, but i'd like them to "pay" for there mistakes by losing time or getting stuck in a sand trap. This is why I don't support these tarmacs run offs.

[Erki]

One NASCAR death was at Watkins Glen - J.D. McDuffie
WRC has had 2 deaths since 1990 if I'm correct

[norman-normal]

Less safe is certainly more exciting! Theres nothing like carnage to draw big crowds, as demonstrated 2000 years ago....Not very sophisticated crowds, but big .

[norman-normal]

Molotov, it's called evolution,it's not just a theory.

[Molotov]

Why would Monza pay for a few guys who are afraid of getting hurt ? IIRC Monza is in a park protected by some laws where it will be very difficult to cut down the trees and widen everything. What's gonna be next? Destroying the buildings at Monaco? I don't see anyone from other series complaining about Monza, the FIA and the drivers should worry about the marshalls, they are the ones at risk not the drivers.

[norman-normal]

Molotov, it's not fear, it is lack of ignorance or judgment which comes from experience to drivers with higher than average I.Q.s.
Sometime when you have a few moments, check the obits' in your news paper; you will find that most of the dearly departed are very old or very young men in their teens or early 20's (I suspect this is your age group) and nearly all were showing their bravery in an automobile.

It's not the bravest drivers who win races, it's the smartest.

[Matski]

This is a subject I have always found annoying.

First of all Nobody wants to see anyone die or get seriously injured

However, the more danger - the more excitment IMHO.

Also, whether it be Drivers or Marshalls (or even spectators) - NOBODY is there that doesn't want to be - everyone involved in motorsport is aware of the risks. If they are not they shouldn't be there in the first place.

Drivers are paid MILLIONS of quid for doing a job I would do for my existing wage (less than £7 per hour - yes I am shockingly under paid!!). My friend earns approximately one thousandth of an F1 driver - he is a fireman - his life is in danger quite often for the good of other people, rather than his bank balance.

I'm not having a go, but I think F1 drivers a paid enough money to cover the possible risks... one season in F1 would set most people up for their entire lives. You could even go to the extent of calling a drivers wage 'danger money' because, at the end of the day, is the ability to drive a car fast around a track every couple of weeks actually worth MILLIONS of pounds to most people? I'd say no..

"If you can't stand the heat - don't put the fire out - give the job to someone that can not only stand the heat, but can eat it for breakfast"

[norman-normal]

Matski, first you say " nobody wants to see someone die---" Then you condone it if their well paid.

[Matski]

Originally Posted by norman-normal

Matski, first you say " nobody wants to see someone die---" Then you condone it if their well paid.

okay - maybe I should expand on that a bit...

This isn't deathrace 2000, the entertainment shouldn't come from injury or death - that is obvious.

But the risks involved are completely obvious to everyone.

The way I see it.. it is a gamble:

on one hand... you can earn enough money, doing a job you enjoy, travelling the world in comparitive luxury, hob-nobing with rich, famous, beautiful and interesting people, driving stunning cars, earning enough money to own pretty much anything you want to own, go anywhere you want to go, be famous, and generally live a life that is soooo perfect and yet so foreign to the other 6 Billion (minus 22) normal people in the world.....

on the other hand you could die....

Originally Posted by molotov

2 deaths in F1 in 16 years...

personally, If I had the opportunity, I'd probably take those odds - especially baring in mind F1 is sooo much safer now than it was 16 years ago.

at worst.. the way I see it, if the drivers want less risks - athey should pay for the alterations to the track themselves.

[JeremySmith]

What the FIA and GPDA must do though is to lesson the odds of a fatality or serious accident as much as is possible.. When I see footage of races back in the day, I cringe at how close, marshals, corner workers, and at times the spectators were to the cars..

[norman-normal]

Matski, it seems to me that there are less violent means of birth control, but I agree that over population is a problem.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Matski

at worst.. the way I see it, if the drivers want less risks - athey should pay for the alterations to the track themselves.

Or they could take their foot off the gas pedal!

Getting fed up now of drivers complaining that bits of track are too dangerous.If you think it's too fast use the bloody brake pedal fer chrisakes!