[BTCC] New Regulations From 2011

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by Scotracer

You are correct. A car with an air-restrictor works just as hard as one without. That is the main problem with the S2000 engines - they have to run themselves into failure to produce the puny 270BHP they have.

The thing is with air-restrictors it is almost impossible to cheat them - the fluid dynamics of them are set by shock theory. 300BHP isn't very much anyway for a 2.0 Turbo so maybe they are trying to get the engines lower strain.

The way to modulate engine power is through the ECU. Induction restrictors are a primative way of doing it today.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by Scotracer

300BHP isn't very much anyway for a 2.0 Turbo so maybe they are trying to get the engines lower strain.

That is exactly what they are aiming for - the plan is that an engine should go an entire season without needing a rebuild, the rev limit is also going to be lowered to 7000 (it's currently 8500) for the same reason. The other advantage of the turbo unit is that when the S2000 equalisation stops in 2013 it will be trivially easy for TOCA to up the power of the NGTC cars as required.

[davyboy]

It will but to be honest, having gigantic amounts of power going through the front wheels will cause further problems with handling etc... yet another reason to allow RWD [or even make the whole series RWD based].

[Urgentemente]

I'd be sad to see RWD disappear as well. I quite enjoy the battles between FWD and RWD on different tracks, some stronger at the start, some at the end etc. I think it gives the racing an edge at times when you know one driver only has a certain window to try and get past another, tho of course if they fail it can make things a bit quieter when they can't challenge anymore.

[steve_r]

Huge discussions about where the cars will come from on here.

If (as claimed) the cars are going to be cheaper to devolp and run, then there will presumably be a strong demand from private teams wanting to setup in BTCC. Therefore RML, TD or whoever else is around in two years time will see the £££££££ signs and will look to churn out some cars for a nice little profit. I presume the market will dictate that cars will be available....

[gregc]

I can't say I'm particularly happy about losing the RWD option, but Alan Gow has a point - why compromise the whole set of rules to appease one manufacturer, who hasn't entered a works car for well over a decade.

Now, if BMW (or Merc, or Jag) approached him with a major commitment to a works effort I imagine it might get looked at again..

I have to say I really don't like the idea of a RWD drive-only series - touring cars at it's heart is about production based racing, and for me the drivetrain layout must match the road car. I know the spec parts in these rules is moving away from that production based ideal to a point, but turning it into a silhouette series by starting to mess with drivetrain layouts would mean it would no longer be touring cars - at that point we might as well go the DTM route, and that is absolutely not (IMO) what the BTCC should be.

[Sodemo]

Why does there have to be a problem with writing a set of rules seperately for RWD?

Just make the rules the same as FWD and have them slap on 40Kg of weight for the benefits of having the rear wheels driven.

Where is the problem?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by gregc

... but turning it into a silhouette series by starting to mess with drivetrain layouts would mean it would no longer be touring cars - at that point we might as well go the DTM route, and that is absolutely not (IMO) what the BTCC should be.

+1

[KA]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Huge discussions about where the cars will come from on here.

If (as claimed) the cars are going to be cheaper to devolp and run, then there will presumably be a strong demand from private teams wanting to setup in BTCC. Therefore RML, TD or whoever else is around in two years time will see the £££££££ signs and will look to churn out some cars for a nice little profit. I presume the market will dictate that cars will be available....

That makes sense- Even if the new regs can't tempt in, for example Ford as a factory team, if someone like RML can tie up a deal as to supply customer 'NGTC-spec' Mondeos, either as a shell and kit of parts, or as a complete ready-to-go car, that could potentially be quite a nice little earner....

[KA]

Originally Posted by gregc

I can't say I'm particularly happy about losing the RWD option, but Alan Gow has a point - why compromise the whole set of rules to appease one manufacturer, who hasn't entered a works car for well over a decade.

Now, if BMW (or Merc, or Jag) approached him with a major commitment to a works effort I imagine it might get looked at again..

I have to say I really don't like the idea of a RWD drive-only series - touring cars at it's heart is about production based racing, and for me the drivetrain layout must match the road car. I know the spec parts in these rules is moving away from that production based ideal to a point, but turning it into a silhouette series by starting to mess with drivetrain layouts would mean it would no longer be touring cars - at that point we might as well go the DTM route, and that is absolutely not (IMO) what the BTCC should be.

It's not just about whether BMW have entered a works team for well over a decade, but about the fact that historically they're the manufacturer who have been the backbone of touring car racing worldwide- look at the number of S2000 BMWs we've seen in the BTCC in recent years, even without an official team.

Taking away the rwd option doesn't just take BMW out of the game as a factory team, but also stops independent teams from using the new regs to build their own BMW (or Merc, or Lexus...). I can understand why TOCA are going this route, but it's probably my least favourite part of the new rule package- and I'm not even particularly a BMW fan. They've managed to successfully equalise rwd against fwd before...

I agree with you about not messing with drivetrain layouts- there's a place in motorsport for that kind of thing, but it isn't the BTCC

[Aunt Sally]

Originally Posted by gregc

I can't say I'm particularly happy about losing the RWD option, but Alan Gow has a point - why compromise the whole set of rules to appease one manufacturer, who hasn't entered a works car for well over a decade.

His point about BMW not entering the BTCC as a manufacturer is correct, but BMW has been represented during that period and at the moment along with chevrolet (who are also not a manufacturer entry) BMW's field the most cars in this current championship. If you add the AFM car there are 5 BMW's out there.

ALSO why complain about BMW not entering as a manufacturer when Mr Gow has said that the championship doesn't need manufacturers??????

As KA has pointed out, BMW have been the backbone of touring car racing, some people say that BMW introduced the ultimate Touring car when it produced the M3.

AND as you have said any manufacturer with a rwd car considering joining has no chance of competing after 2011. It does not just effect BMW.

[gregc]

I don't necessarily agree with him!! All I'm saying is that I can see where he's coming from

[davyboy]

When it comes to the RWD ban, I can't see where he's coming from. I hope he has a rethink on it because a lot of the remaining regulations aren't that bad at all.

[FIRE]

It's probably to early to expect an response but I would like to hear what Mario Theissen (BMW), Eric Neve (Chevrolet), Jaime Puig (SEAT) and KSO/WTCC have to say about NGTC.

It would also be interesting to hear from DTC and STCC organizers about these new rules. Is there interest from Gow to NGTC being used in other series?

(hint for Helterskelter/StopAndGo.tv & Johan/TouringCarTimes )

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by Aunt Sally

His point about BMW not entering the BTCC as a manufacturer is correct, but BMW has been represented during that period

But there were no competitive BMW's racing in the BTCC for nearly 10 years (1997 - 2006), so they are obviously not as vital to the series as people imagine.

[gregc]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Is there interest from Gow to NGTC being used in other series?

From the Q&A:

So I wouldn’t be surprised if some other national touring car championships, currently using S2000, don’t also look at what we have done with our new regulations…

I'd interpret that as a yes...

[Flat12-Aircool]

BMW should belong to Sportscar racing more than Touring cars nowadays. Their involvement in Touring cars over the years to the degree which they have, is obviously for the most part down to the performance edge that RWD gives them. If they only made FWD cars would they have been that interested in the BTCC for this long?

It says a lot about BMW that they don't seem to be interested in competing in the one major RWD only Touring car championship that also spawns from their home turf. A bit too much competition for them? I think the best thing BMW can do in 2011 is to join the DTM and compete against other RWD cars.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by gregc

From the Q&A:

I'd interpret that as a yes...

Missed that. Looks indeed as a yes. BMW's are heavily used in STCC and DTC. These series could always allow the German RWD cars (and other RWD cars). Use for RWD cars the NGTC technical rules and give them extra weight.

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

BMW should belong to Sportscar racing more than Touring cars nowadays. Their involvement in Touring cars over the years to the degree which they have, is obviously for the most part down to the performance edge that RWD gives them. If they only made FWD cars would they have been that interested in the BTCC for this long?

RWD is part of their success but also their excellent support to customers.

Originally Posted by Flat12-Aircool

It says a lot about BMW that they don't seem to be interested in competing in the one major RWD only Touring car championship that also spawns from their home turf. A bit too much competition for them? I think the best thing BMW can do in 2011 is to join the DTM and compete against other RWD cars.

According BMW they are not interested in DTM because:
a) These tubeframe silhouette cars have nothing to do with road cars
b) They want to sell cars to customers

[davyboy]

I agree with FIRE, I think its very unfair to say that BMW have only participated in touring car racing because of the advantage of RWD. They've been the backbone of the WTCC for almost a decade, fielding numerous works teams and giving support to privateers. They have a heritage in touring car racing going back many decades and possibly have contributed more to touring car racing than any other marque. Its practically in their DNA. What's more, they have always worked closely with privateers to make their technology accessible to more than just the works teams - c.f the 2002, 3.5CSL, 635CSi, M3, E36 318, E46 320, E90 320.

Many people on this thread have questioned the exclusion of BMW... and I'm sure we're not alone among the motorsport community. If they're cast out on a worldwide basis [assuming everyone adopts Alan Gow's rules]... it will be a very sad development for touring car racing.

[awrb]

Just on the 'who would build a car' point, anyone remember Synchro Motorsport. Tiny operation run by some people from the UK Honda factory with very little backing but always did well and won either the production or indy title one year (hard fact for you there!) They pulled out a few years back cause they couldn't get the backing. Surely it's people like them who would be interested in a halved budget. New teams could build these cars.

Once upon a time there was no 888, WSR or Arena. Racing cars were still built. We can't look at the grid now and say "there'll be no teams to make cars", because that's just at the moment, new teams can evolve and emerge into this series. Just look at the new teams looking at F1 now the budget's set to drop.

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by awrb

We can't look at the grid now and say "there'll be no teams to make cars", because that's just at the moment

Don't know how anyone can think there are no teams to make the cars for the BTCC. Have a look at the grid now and you will see there at least 5 of them; 888, Dynamics, Arena, RML and WSR just for starters. They are all teams that have all designed and built cars only for use in the BTCC (in case people forget, RML started in touring cars by building a Vauxhall only for the BTCC as a privateer effort years ago) and they all sell to other teams!

And that's just the current teams, let alone new ones that will join because its cheaper. So obviously there are plenty of teams that will build them.

[touringlegend]

It should be easier for a team to come in from a support series due to tall the common parts that will be off the shelf, such as the subframe etc.

[jab]

Both Ian Harrison and Steve Neal (2 bosses of those teams that do actually build their own cars, i.e. they should know what they're talking about) were in Autosport this week saying it's going to be very difficult to fund this without manufacturer support

IH: "I like the rules, but I'm worried about the timing. When we started on these rules, we had Vauxhall and SEAT, Volvo were coming in, Ford, Honda etc, all of whom could potentially support the build costs, so for teams to find the money to build these cars is going to be difficult"

SN: "The suggestion has been that the three existing constructors [Dynamics, Triple 8 and Arena] could all build six new cars each straight away, and sell four each to customers to recoup our costs. I think that's a bit optimistic"

[touring fan01]

Originally Posted by jab

Both Ian Harrison and Steve Neal (2 bosses of those teams that do actually build their own cars, i.e. they should know what they're talking about) were in Autosport this week saying it's going to be very difficult to fund this without manufacturer support

IH: "I like the rules, but I'm worried about the timing. When we started on these rules, we had Vauxhall and SEAT, Volvo were coming in, Ford, Honda etc, all of whom could potentially support the build costs, so for teams to find the money to build these cars is going to be difficult"

SN: "The suggestion has been that the three existing constructors [Dynamics, Triple 8 and Arena] could all build six new cars each straight away, and sell four each to customers to recoup our costs. I think that's a bit optimistic"

You need to put those quotes into context. In the article they were said in relation to the timing during the current financial climate. But the new cars don't come fully into force until 2013 so they can run their current cars for another 4 years if they want so there is no great hurry to build them. Teams just replace their cars with the new (much cheaper) ones when their normal replacement time comes around, which is usually every 2 or 3 years, exactly the same as they are doing now.

I don't know why you keep banging on about "who will build them and who will afford them?". Have a look at the grid; 90% of the current teams are privateers who can afford to build or buy or run S2000 cars (without any manufacturer support), and which are much more expensive, so why do you think those same teams won't be able to build or buy or run the new cars when they are much cheaper?? They can afford to build or buy S2000 cars without manufacturer support but you doubt if they can build or buy cheaper cars? That's just doesn't make sense.

[PDS]

Originally Posted by touring fan01

I don't know why you keep banging on about "who will build them and who will afford them?". Have a look at the grid; 90% of the current teams are privateers who can afford to build or buy or run S2000 cars (without any manufacturer support), and which are much more expensive, so why do you think those same teams won't be able to build or buy or run the new cars when they are much cheaper??

I understand what you are saying, but, the cars, whatever chosen, will have to be 'developed', and that takes money.

I heard that Arena have put in a six figure sum to develop the Focus'. If that is true, how are 'Independant teams' going to find that sort of money to build cars from scratch?