Alonso to Red Bull in 2014?

[littleman]

So, if Vettel wasn't driving for Red Bull, and Webber was paired with either Button,Alonso,Hamilton or Raikkonen, then Red Bull would still have won the Championship for the past 3 years.Vettel is not actually the key ingredient - it's the car (Newey).

All Vettel has really done, is use a totally superior car to blitz an inferior team mate.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Briatore says Alonso's committed to Ferrari.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/109135

[Bononi]

That's "for sure".

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by littleman

So, if Vettel wasn't driving for Red Bull, and Webber was paired with either Button,Alonso,Hamilton or Raikkonen, then Red Bull would still have won the Championship for the past 3 years.Vettel is not actually the key ingredient - it's the car (Newey).

All Vettel has really done, is use a totally superior car to blitz an inferior team mate.

Isn't that all any "better" driver does?

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by littleman

So, if Vettel wasn't driving for Red Bull, and Webber was paired with either Button,Alonso,Hamilton or Raikkonen, then Red Bull would still have won the Championship for the past 3 years.Vettel is not actually the key ingredient - it's the car (Newey).

All Vettel has really done, is use a totally superior car to blitz an inferior team mate.

Originally Posted by Mr V

Isn't that all any "better" driver does?

Since I know F1 it is like that... even Senna couldn't beat that.

[chunterer]

I can't see Alonso really wanting to leave now Allison is there. He woukd miss out on the results of his design/engineering input on the new car, and his replacement would reap the rewards.

He's getting impatient and rightly so but he still needs to keep a cool head. Besides it doesn't seem as though Vettel gets remotely as rattled by pr stories ad Alonso or, Hamilton do for that matter!

I'm sure thT Alonso will have some performance clauses in his contract though, but what they are and how or when they get activated is another matter!

[littleman]

The point I've been trying to make, and struggling to!, is that it's the car that makes the difference, not the driver.

Ferrari, and others, have their Young Driver programme's but who is operating with a "Young Adrian Newey" programme?

Since 1970, I reckon only 3 drivers have won the WDC in anything other than the best car - just my opinion:

Rosberg - 1982
Schumacher - 1995
Raikkonen - 2007

Vettel is an outstanding driver, but until he's paired with Alonso,Hamilton,Raikkonen or maybe Button we don't know how good.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by littleman

The point I've been trying to make, and struggling to!, is that it's the car that makes the difference, not the driver.

Ferrari, and others, have their Young Driver programme's but who is operating with a "Young Adrian Newey" programme?

Since 1970, I reckon only 3 drivers have won the WDC in anything other than the best car - just my opinion:

Rosberg - 1982
Schumacher - 1995
Raikkonen - 2007

Vettel is an outstanding driver, but until he's paired with Alonso,Hamilton,Raikkonen or maybe Button we don't know how good.

If you have a clown in the best car, you would not know that it was the best car.

The point is that Vettel made the car significantly better than Webber did.

He has therefore made the most of the equipment available to him, whether anyone else could have performed as well is questionable.
Your list of outstanding drivers have all been beaten or equaled by talented team mates, so far Vettel has never had anyone come close.

I believe that Webber is very good, he is just unfortunate to be paired with one of the very best.
It is a pity that Webber did not go to Ferrari.

[littleman]

That's because Alonso,Hamilton,Raikkonen and Button have, at some point, been paired with an equally outstanding team mate.

So far Vettel hasn't.

[littleman]

Vettel, like Schumacher, has avoided having an outstanding team mate.That's why they've won so many titles.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by littleman

Vettel, like Schumacher, has avoided having an outstanding team mate.That's why they've won so many titles.

Schumacher had Piquet, Brindle, Herbert, Verstappen, Lehto, Massa, Rosberg, Barrichello, Irvine.

All of whom he beat handily, some of whom have beaten players on your list.

Remember F1 is a team sport, and at the moment RBR with Vettel are the best team in F1. I do not know if any of those on your list would do the job as well as Vettel. I for one doubt it, I think that Vettel is way more talented than people give him credit for, and he has 3 WDCs to back that claim.

The test would be, would he be WDC if he was driving the second placed car in the championship, in all three of his WDCs I think the answer would be yes! Remembering that he was still very young and inexperienced in 2010.

He has the outright pace to compete with Lewis and the consistency and intelligence of Alonso!

Would anyone beat him in equal equipment But doubtful.

[littleman]

Prost,Senna,Piquet and even Mansell took on the best of their generation in equal equipment.

Alonso,Hamilton,Raikkonen and Button have,at times, done the same.

Would Schumacher have won seven titles if he'd taken on Hakkinen or Alonso in the same car?

Vettel has 3 titles, but he's only taken Webber on.

[littleman]

Hamilton has taken pole in the last 3 GP's in a Merc, Rosberg has taken a few too.
Vettel has got a Red Bull, so what's he been doing?

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by littleman

Hamilton has taken pole in the last 3 GP's in a Merc, Rosberg has taken a few too.
Vettel has got a Red Bull, so what's he been doing?

Gathering more points than everyone else and currently leading the championship

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by littleman

Prost,Senna,Piquet and even Mansell took on the best of their generation in equal equipment.

Alonso,Hamilton,Raikkonen and Button have,at times, done the same.

Would Schumacher have won seven titles if he'd taken on Hakkinen or Alonso in the same car?

Vettel has 3 titles, but he's only taken Webber on.

Vettel has taken everybody on, the best of his generation, and beaten them to three titles. Beating people in equal equipment is not what Formula one's about and never has been.

[littleman]

Because he's got THE dominant car but making hard work of it.

[Adam43]

I thought he's made IT look easy!

I'm afraid it isn't as obvious as you think.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Vettel has taken everybody on, the best of his generation, and beaten them to three titles. Beating people in equal equipment is not what Formula one's about and never has been.

You are correct in that F1 isn't about taking on all-comers in equal equipment and beat them.
That's for GP2, GP3, and Indycar, F3, FR3.5 etc.

But the point here is that the drivers mentioned in earlier generations raced others in the same team and beat them, or raced in similar equipment and the WDC was a contest between drivers, not just machinery.

The Ferrari dominance in 2000-2004 changed that. The machine became supreme and todays technical regulations are framed in a way where the amount of money and research/development in machinery determines the order more than the driver.
Which is NOT the way it was 30-40 years earlier. The opportunity was on a much broader base (but not necessarily equal) for drivers to exercise their prowess. Piquet and Mansell in the same team got much the same opportunity in 1986-87 and raced others in similar circumstances.

But that is not the way the 'sport' is now and the 'sport' is poorer for it. It is still a sport because the WDC is about competition, but it is a shadow of the sport it once was.

[Adam43]

I thought it WAS that way 30-40 years ago. Take 35 years ago - 1978. A dominant car, team orders dictating one champion. In the history of the sport there have been times and teams with one main driver and times and teams with two. You run your team how you want.

I don't see a great difference.

[Teretonga]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I thought it WAS that way 30-40 years ago. Take 35 years ago - 1978. A dominant car, team orders dictating one champion. In the history of the sport there have been times and teams with one main driver and times and teams with two. You run your team how you want.

I don't see a great difference.

Peterson-Andretti is a good point but my comment is NOT about team orders but about the influence of machinery and the way the current emphasis on restrictive regulation has changed the way teams operate and drivers compete.
The Mario Andretti-Ronnie Peterson arrangement was more an exception than the general rule across the decade. You may see it things differently but I stand by my opinion.

[littleman]

At last! - Welcome Teretonga, somebody who understands my posts!

Maybe it's because we've followed F1 from the seventies, (even before!), that we know the current offering falls way short of the gladitorial combats of old.

We need to see Vettel paired with Hamilton, Alonso with Raikkonen or any combination you like.

Vettel whipping Webber every year is, from a spectators viewpoint,tedious.I still maintain he's got 3 titles but not really beaten the serious contenders.

[Paradise City]

Vettel, whether we think of him as merely good or a great, has the advantage of being the incumbent, he's intimate with the team and familiar with the people, his support staff and the management including the owner. This makes him invulnerable for the foreseeable future and he will be able to outperform any new arrival even if that new arrival is substantially more talented than he is.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Teretonga

Peterson-Andretti is a good point but my comment is NOT about team orders but about the influence of machinery and the way the current emphasis on restrictive regulation has changed the way teams operate and drivers compete.
The Mario Andretti-Ronnie Peterson arrangement was more an exception than the general rule across the decade. You may see it things differently but I stand by my opinion.

I too prefer the old days and see your point about freedom of regulations. On the specific of how teams and drivers operate I just remember the old extreme examples!

Originally Posted by littleman

At last! - Welcome Teretonga, somebody who understands my posts!

Just to let you know I understood your post, I just thought it wrong to say he's made hard work of it.
He plays his car advantage well, even overcame some reliability problems.
I won't argue that the competition hasn't been stronger.

[Kempi]

Originally Posted by littleman

We need to see Vettel paired with Hamilton, Alonso with Raikkonen or any combination you like.

Vettel whipping Webber every year is, from a spectators viewpoint,tedious.I still maintain he's got 3 titles but not really beaten the serious contenders.

Maybe you should dig in the archives of this forum to find the Vettel vs Webber threads 2009 & 2010. a good part of this forum thought that Vettel would not be able to beat Webber. Now, does this mean Webber was way overrated back then or maybe that Webber was rated about right and Vettel is actually that much better than many thought?

[FAS33]

I always thought F1 was about who had the quickest reaction time.