ALMS Rnd 5: Utah 17-19 May 2007

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by skycafe

Ah, that explains it perfectly!!! Despite facing the first factory competition in years at Le Mans, and someone also running a diesel (and thus threathening a part of their marketing angle for the program), Audi was sitting on their hands the entire time!


robert

I'll take the latter first. Audi did quite extensive aero work to develop more downforce while maintaining a pretty much to that point untouched(challenged) pace. There is just so much torque(limited) that can be applied. As to staying ahead of the Pugs, the only relevant comparison I can come up with is Horag.
Sebring=Audi 5.95km Q diff. 8.62 seconds race lap diff 6.770
Monza=Pug 5.73km Q diff 6.80 seconds race lap diff 6.292
Valencia=Pug 4.005 Q diff 5.40 seconds race lap diff. 4.867

Now to your flipantness.......

L.P.

[Purist]

By the numbers, the P2s MUST make 546hp to have the same power to weight as the Audi, IF the Audi is only making 650hp (P2s at 775kg, P1s at 925kg). For a 700hp LMP1 (Peugeot), the P2s must make 586hp to have the same ratio. However, the smaller, lighter cars only have around half the torque.

I'd have to think the Acura and Porsche engines are making around 520hp, maybe 540. Those are 3.4-litre, normally-aspirated V8s. The turbos were the pace-setters in P675/P2, and at best were quoted at 540hp, but the engines weren't necessarily reliable. So even with their resources, I don't see the factories having upped the horsepower much, if at all, from the 675s. What has changed is reliability, as well as further development in aerodynamics, brakes, and tires.

The Audis should accelerate better, if they can put all that torque down, which I suspect they do a pretty good job of, and they should have a higher outright top-end than the P2s, unless P1s have 20-25% more frontal area than P2s.

To me, the numbers say that, at best, the power to weight is very close, but the diesels should easily be able to out-pull the P2s, and petrol P1s, with their stupidly high torque.

[Fogelhund]

It is hard to come to conclusions here. There was a large sand storm yesterday, and the track still isn't as good as it should be. A track with inferior traction, could be a bigger disadvantage for the torque of the Audi R10. We also don't know how much the R10 was programmed for fast laps, vs. race pace.

I think we wait and see what race pace is here, before drawing any real conclusions, but I don't think the 5% reduction in restrictors that the ACO mandated would have even been enough to knock the Penske's off the front row here.

Amazing improvement in the P2 times over last year, no matter what have to say about the rules and all though.

The Mazda also did pretty well today, all things considered.

[paul-collins]

Paddock gossip last year pegged the Porsches at 550, and they've been updated. Peugeot has said they're in the 730 range. I'd anticipate Audi power being similar.

How does the gap as shown by gwillion jibe with Sebring's year to year?

Audi 2006: 1.45.828
Audi 2007: 1.44.974

Porsche 2006: 1.47.800
Porsche 2007: 1.46.046

How is it possible that Audi is now 3 seconds off the pace? This does not bode well for Audi for LM, in my opinion. Either they've lost their way, or they've catastrophically miscalculated the pace required in their engine mapping. (Remember, diesels are far less affected by air restrictors than normally aspirated engines - they can easily trade economy for power via alternate mapping)

[jhansen]

It is an interesting study. I tend to think that the R10's design is even more Le Mans focussed in comparison to the R8. Let's face it, that's the race Audi want to win. Sebring and ALMS titles are a bonus (and easy ones at that).

Last year we saw light weight P1's and obviously light weight P2's nip at the R10's heels at a few venues and even win at Mid Ohio. A year of development for the RS Spyder and the presence of Acura has pushed the P2 goal posts forward by a much wider margin. Aside from Sebring, the R10's have been on their heels on slow street tracks and a slippery circuit in Utah. But I seriously doubt we'll find a struggling Audi once Sunday morning dawns at Le Mans. With the P1 title a lock, who's to say that they aren't testing various components on the run up to Le Mans? Pratt and Miller are doing just that in the void that is GT1.

Regardless, I think the ALMS could peg the P2's back to ACO legal restrictors post Le Mans. Penske and Acura will have time to make the adjustment during the Le Mans break. They will still be strong at Limerock, Mid Ohio, Detroit, and Laguna Seca. And the show will not be affected.

[WouterM]

Originally Posted by Purist

By the numbers, the P2s MUST make 546hp to have the same power to weight as the Audi, IF the Audi is only making 650hp (P2s at 775kg, P1s at 925kg). For a 700hp LMP1 (Peugeot), the P2s must make 586hp to have the same ratio. However, the smaller, lighter cars only have around half the torque.

I'd have to think the Acura and Porsche engines are making around 520hp, maybe 540. Those are 3.4-litre, normally-aspirated V8s. The turbos were the pace-setters in P675/P2, and at best were quoted at 540hp, but the engines weren't necessarily reliable. So even with their resources, I don't see the factories having upped the horsepower much, if at all, from the 675s. What has changed is reliability, as well as further development in aerodynamics, brakes, and tires.

The Audis should accelerate better, if they can put all that torque down, which I suspect they do a pretty good job of, and they should have a higher outright top-end than the P2s, unless P1s have 20-25% more frontal area than P2s.

To me, the numbers say that, at best, the power to weight is very close, but the diesels should easily be able to out-pull the P2s, and petrol P1s, with their stupidly high torque.

The lower weight also helps during braking and cornering, so it's not just power to weight ratio that matters.

[dj4monie]

I don't think any adjustment should be made, as has been said before, its good for the series to not have the outcome an afterthought before the checkered flag has been shown.

Audi will have to earn its overall victories this year and back into class victories, hardly anything to brag about as you have seen so far in the media. To the laymen the Audi finished 2nd at Houston and challenge at Long Beach only to be foiled by a GT car.

Thems the break, its racing...

On the season Audi is 2 of 4 so far this season and that's not BAD with over HALF the season yet to run still. LMP1 is not in doubt, but nobody pays attention to that as long as Intersports and Autocon can't outrun the factory run LMP2 cars and actually CHALLENGE Audi. But without front-line talent behind the wheel of both Creations, they aren't going to threaten anybody anytime soon.

The fight for overall is well and truly ON, and its nice to see.

I wish this discussion of ACO 5% hogwash would just GO AWAY.

When Audi has to fight an EQUAL LMP1 team for overall, then you can MAYBE cry about LMP2's fighting for overall victory, but as its been pointed out, as long as ALMS runs street tracks and tight and twisty tracks like Mid Ohio and Belle Isle, LMP2's in the hands of either a fell funded private effort or a factory team will challenge for overall victory.

[canam]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

OMFG. How long did it take people to understand this? The factory P2s aren't making 500 hp. No way in hell.

If, as has been suggested elsewhere, the Porkers were pushing out 550bhp last year, then they are probably putting out about 575bhp now. In the interest of overall wins, Porshe would have done engine development to offset the bhp impact of the expected restrictor reduction in 2007--which did not happen. Hoping not to lose horsepower, they are now in a position of getting a boost--relative to their plans.

A five second improvement is exciting yet somewhat disconcerting within the larger scheme of things.

[paul-collins]

Just wanted to note, jhansen, last year at Mid Ohio Audi ran the R8.

[MulsanneMike]

"IMSA officials will be looking at the data during the Le Mans break, presumably."

With Audi moping onto the grid at Utah, I'm sure IMSA will be.

[ger80]

Do we have bigger improvements on the 2007 Michelin LMP2 tire?

[Speed-King]

Guess we'll find that out at Le Mans. If the Michelin LMP2 tires have so much improved, we should see that in the lap times of RML and the other Michelin shoed LMP2 teams.

[Purist]

Wouter, what you say is true in theory, but may not be happening to a large extent depending on the tires and brakes the LMP2s are running. I am well aware of the advantages lighter weight casn offer; I am a big fan of the Colin Chapman (Lotus) philosophy.

[skycafe]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Now to your flipantness.......

L.P.

Other then the addition of some bulges and flaps I have had little recent aero development, but, under local rules I run unrestricted so it balances out!

One thing that does seem to factor in is the long steady state corners in Utah. I don't believe the Audi is any great handling machine. Powerwise it can cope with high downforce, but I believe it is just so tail heavy that it is a b**ch to drive, something the P2 cars are not challenged with, and seems to have been also how Creation and Zytek were able to run in the Audi neighborhood.

I still do believe that Audi is sandbagging, to what extent I am not sure. I guess the race will possibly help clarify, or we wait to Le Mans.

robert

[brielga]

agree, sandbagging in Utah and then attack in LM...that's their tactics

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

Just wanted to note, jhansen, last year at Mid Ohio Audi ran the R8.

Indeed, thanks for the correction.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by brielga

agree, sandbagging in Utah and then attack in LM...that's their tactics

Try as I might, I can't see a reason that would make this a useful tactic.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by cmk

Try as I might, I can't see a reason that would make this a useful tactic.

Me either, I would think that if Audi thinks of Peugeot as a threat at LaMans then this would be the place to step up the program not lay back. And while I think that Audi may have some thought toward the Peugeots not being ready to compete for the entire race they are smart enough to not discount what looks so far to be, possibly, their strongest opponent. Then again how much testing has Joest done in the Arden while no one was watching?

L.P.

[MulsanneMike]

Audi racing in the ALMS is nothing about Le Mans and Peugeot for the moment. They're still *****ed off about the LMP2 regulations and seem to be going to great lengths to show that there's an imbalance there. Hell, they just led the practice times going into the race. So that's why sandbagging ro whatever we want to call it is a useful tactic. Its playing politics on the track.

[HORNDAWG]

Hindy's up.

L.P.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by MulsanneMike

Audi racing in the ALMS is nothing about Le Mans and Peugeot for the moment. They're still *****ed off about the LMP2 regulations and seem to be going to great lengths to show that there's an imbalance there. Hell, they just led the practice times going into the race. So that's why sandbagging ro whatever we want to call it is a useful tactic. Its playing politics on the track.

Sorry a 2:22 leading the warmup while Qing in with a 2:21 and pole at 2:18.1 is not hiding anything!

L.P.

[AU N EGL]

Is Audi Racing a little upset that A smaller displacment petrol powered Porsche is faster the the big turbo diesel ?? Is this going to upset Audis Diesel marketing plans??

Nooooo, could not be.

That is why it is called RACING.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Sorry a 2:22 leading the warmup while Qing in with a 2:21 and pole at 2:18.1 is not hiding anything!

L.P.

You're exactely right, Audi qualified with their race setup.

[1969MGCGTdriver]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Is Audi Racing a little upset that A smaller displacment petrol powered Porsche is faster the the big turbo diesel ?? Is this going to upset Audis Diesel marketing plans??

Nooooo, could not be.

That is why it is called RACING.

did you feel the same way last season with the A-M vs. corvette ****ing contest?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Pirro "I think I'll use the throttle this time!" - Like Werner said, like from a sci-fi movie.