ALMS Rnd 11: Petit Le Mans 3-6 Oct 2007

[jhansen]

Yet they are still doing just fine without the extra horses.

[canam]

...yes they are... but we will never really know if they needed them when they had them.

More generally, if no one is bothered about restrictors on the Porkers, why not give the P1s another 5%. After all, many of you are saying they did not make any difference on the Porkers.

[jhansen]

Maybe I'm coming into this a bit late, but I'm not understanding what your point is.

Plus lets not forget that Audi hasn't exactly been mistake or trouble free this year. They could have won a race here or there.

[dj4monie]

The point that everybody keeps missing -

At least the overall winner wasn't a forgone CONCLUSION this season.

[canam]

I am trying to insert a bit of balance regarding the potency of LMP2 and the Penske cars in particular. I would agree with all the facts that have been presented. P2 has been astoundingly good for a wide range of reasons and the Audi has had its problems; however, these races are short races on circuits that favour a light nimble car driven by top class pros. The fact that they had the extra horspower for a reasonable portion of the season seems to be downplayed to such a degree that it has become nonsensical. Hence my equally ridiculous suggestion.

If Porsche and Acura can take it to the Audi in P2--and win, then they should be in P1 (as a P1 car should theorectically be even faster). Is Porsche saying that they can't build a P1 car (that beats the Audi) while they an do it with a P2 car? Nonsense. All this year has shown is that the P2 regs were flawed as well as those within P1

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by canam

I am trying to insert a bit of balance regarding the potency of LMP2 and the Penske cars in particular. I would agree with all the facts that have been presented. P2 has been astoundingly good for a wide range of reasons and the Audi has had its problems; however, these races are short races on circuits that favour a light nimble car driven by top class pros. The fact that they had the extra horspower for a reasonable portion of the season seems to be downplayed to such a degree that it has become nonsensical. Hence my equally ridiculous suggestion.

If Porsche and Acura can take it to the Audi in P2--and win, then they should be in P1 (as a P1 car should theorectically be even faster). Is Porsche saying that they can't build a P1 car (that beats the Audi) while they an do it with a P2 car? Nonsense. All this year has shown is that the P2 regs were flawed as well as those within P1

The P1 and P2 rules are specifically written with one race in mind...Le Mans. Most have come to believe that an RS Spyder could not cope with the top speed advantage of Audi, Peugeot and the better privateers at Le Mans. So in that case, the rules work as intended. And how fortunate for us as fans that the lightweight cars have an advantage at more conventional circuits with shorter races. With that said, I have no doubt that the ACO feel a bit flustered at the potential they gave the P2 class. Hence the rule changes.

As for the P1 regs, I think in some ways the pace of the petrol P2 cars has shown that a petrol P1 car could be very quick indeed. I can't tell you why Porsche and Acura are in P2. Because it isn't because they think they can win Le Mans. At least Acura has said they want to move up, which is good.

[paul-collins]

Ok, let's look at the results versus the IMSA rule that did not implement the ACO P2 strangulation:

1. Sebring: Audi wins - long distance, long straights where the extra power might have helped - fastest race lap almost 125 mph
2. St Pete: Audi 1-2 - street circuit where the light, nimble cars were supposed to be competitive - fastest race lap 102 mph
3. Long Beach: Porsche wins - tightest street circuit of the season, Audi completely outclassed (and they expected it) - fastest race lap 96.5 mph
4. Houston: Porsche wins - street circuit - how could extra power help?
5. Salt Lake: Porsche wins - despite what people might think, MMP is not a horsepower track: fastest qualifying lap was 117 mph. (Compare to Road America and Mosport later)

Insert here, the ACO strangulation of P2.

6. Lime Rock: Porsche 1-2, Audi nowhere - momentum track, higher speeds than MMP (fastest race lap 122 mph)
7. Mid Ohio: Porsche 1-2 - fastest race lap almost 116 mph
8. Road America: Porsche wins - fastest race lap 133 mph!
9. Mosport: Porsche wins - fastest race lap 133 mph!
10. Detroit: Porsche wins - fastest race lap 99 mph.

So, in reality, the place in where P2s stood to benefit in the first half of the season, Sebring, Porsche did not realize a gain. But once the restrictors were in place, Audi were still beaten fair and square in the two places they had no business losing.

The reality is that power alone had nothing to do with Audi losing. It comes down to the Porsche package being a better one to race (except, probably, Le Mans). Certainly for the short (less than 6h) races, anyway. Aside: I do wonder just how the Audis will stack up against the Peugeots next year; I have a sneaking feeling that on any track not found in Pays de la Loire the Pugs would spank the Audis...

Now, the argument that the ACO got the P2 balance wrong is one that I could accept for this year, as the fuel restriction on the Audi has had the expected effect of them having to dial back the horsepower in order to gain some efficiency (diesels aren't as sensitive to air restrictors as spark ignition cars are). Although they still aren't in the same ballpark as the P1 spark ignition engines - but I think that's been addressed by the ACO, and maybe even adequately addressed.

I'm not particularly upset about them deciding to rein in the P2s in principle, either, although I think that the ALMS is within their rights to delay implementation for a year - that will dovetail with reality and provide good racing next year as well.

[littleman]

Given that VW, Audi and Porsche have very strong links at a corporate and engineering level, I seriously doubt that either Porsche or Audi would want to compete with each other in the same racing category. I guess they have deliberately chosen to pursue LMP1 and LMP2 so there is no direct clash and both bases have been covered should one class prove more dominant than the other.

[dxk1]

It's disappointing that Henri Pescarolo didn't send at least one car as I believe he would have been a crowd favorite. He's a great underdog and his hang-dog looks are very endearing. Americans love to support the underdog. Also, he seems to have a great attitude and does a great job of preparing his cars for the long haul. Finally, I would say that those of us who have followed endurance racing for a long time remember him as a terrific competitor who was quite successful in his racing career no matter if he was driving Porsches, Matras or Alfa Romeos.

DK

[mirkob]

I dont know if is an old news, but Andrea Bertolini (Maserati and Pirelli driver, FIA GT 2006 Champion) will join Theys and Lienhard in Doran MC12 for the Petit Le Mans (source http://www.maseraticorse.com/home.ph...0114&idsitm=CN )

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by littleman

Given that VW, Audi and Porsche have very strong links at a corporate and engineering level, I seriously doubt that either Porsche or Audi would want to compete with each other in the same racing category. I guess they have deliberately chosen to pursue LMP1 and LMP2 so there is no direct clash and both bases have been covered should one class prove more dominant than the other.

Yes, I would say that those strong links are quite burly indeed, considering that Porsche is the largest share holder of the VAG group (with a very strong possibility of a takeover within the near future)
The problem is that Porsche is the sports car manufacturer within the group, and Audi is really "occupying" the position in the class (P1) that would better suit Porsche's marketing. (Through Porsche own fault!)

[henk4]

Originally Posted by Spyderman

Yes, I would say that those strong links are quite burly indeed, considering that Porsche is the largest share holder of the VAG group (with a very strong possibility of a takeover within the near future)
The problem is that Porsche is the sports car manufacturer within the group, and Audi is really "occupying" the position in the class (P1) that would better suit Porsche's marketing. (Through Porsche own fault!)

hm, I think both companies were independently developing their racing programmes, before Porsche's (read Piech's) appetite for VAG became more manifest...

[Spyderman]

I think it's Wendelin Wiedekin with the ferocious apatite (and of course fed by the Piech and Porsche families)

As for the separate racing program, this may shed some light:

http://www.mulsannescorner.com/porschelmp1.html

[henk4]

conspiracy theories are always finding many followers, but I think we are moving away from the title topic...

[minimangler]

Indeed we are; back on topic-
Hedge your bets guys, Audi or Porsche?

I say Audi- longer races tend to favour the bigger P1 cars.

[brielga]

Zytek

[minimangler]

Originally Posted by brielga

Zytek

Snap out of it, man!

surely not???

[brielga]

I am famous....

[supercarS7]

I wonder why AGR didn't put Marino in the car to replace his brother. The guy drove well for them all year and won;t get a shot in the marquee race of the season.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by supercarS7

I wonder why AGR didn't put Marino in the car to replace his brother. The guy drove well for them all year and won;t get a shot in the marquee race of the season.

Yes! The only reason I can think of is that Marino's contrtact is/was tied to Dario's as rumored at the beginning of the year, although Marino proved himself quite well during the season. You would think that AGR would have kept him at least through the end of the season!? Rather asinine on AGR's part.

L.P.

[jhansen]

Well, it might seem unfair, but I'm guessing that AGR have their reasons for it. They are in fact the best placed to make this decision. They have all of the relevant information.

[Aerodynamic]

Originally Posted by minimangler

Snap out of it, man!

surely not???

hmmm, would be tempted to have an outside bet on the P1 Zytek but I dont think the drivers can keep up with the other lads.

The P2 Zytek on the other hand......should be a dark horse....Especially considering who its being peddled by, which rumour has it is still not 100% decided....could be something to do with Manning coming in for Shimmy-san...

[cmk]

Did I miss Vitor signing for AGR in IRL or something?

I hope the P2 Zytek lineup stays as it is. I'd rather see Charouz/Mucke/Watts get their chance. Unless the funding was largely supposed to come from Charouz and has disappeared - noticed a lack of their sponsors on the car at least.

Couldn't Shimoda share with Manning and Chilton? I'm guessing his absence has something to do with $$ or conflicting commitments.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by cmk

Did I miss Vitor signing for AGR in IRL or something?

I was wondering the same thing. I have found no mention anywhere yet though. Release at the IRL site does not mention any long term connection, but who knows at this point? release

L.P.

[The359]

Practice session is over. Audi still 1 and 2, got down to a 1:08. All four RS Spyders right behind.

I'm really surprised by the lack of pace of the Zyteks and Creation.

Some of that supposed Panoz improvement is showing, they were second fastest in GT2.