[BTCC] NGTC: Which cars do you wanna see?

[andy97]

Originally Posted by werner

Most of those cars are to small probably. There is a minimum lenght of 4.40m IIRC

Yes, but why?

Touring Cars have been too prescriptive for too long. Time to allow in different cars with a min of 2 doors as long as they comply with the minimum weight regs and the same tech regs (engine size, common components etc). It would be better for the show and might encourage more manufacturers and privateers in.

[FIRE]

Why? Because most of the fans want the bigger cars.

[andy97]

Not sure that's true - I reckon most fans just want to see good racing and the image of the smaller, nimble cars taking on the bigger cars is one that is a part of British saloon/ touring car history. Even if the engines are the same some types of car will thrive at the twisty circuits (eg Brands) and some will thrive where high speed stability is important (eg Thruxton) and that all makes for an entertaining series.

[FIRE]

Of course the quality of racing is the most important. But I get the impression most of the people here want the bigger cars (like in the Super Touring days).

[V8 Fireworks]

http://www.supertouringregister.com/gallery/pic/622.php

Hmm... It's certainly bigger than a hatch-back!


Seriously, a maximum of 300 hp from a turbocharged 2L engine should significantly reduce the amount of engine tuning required... hopefully many of the mentioned manufacturers will enter with the main cost removed.

[duke_toaster]

Or they could always use the TOCA engine.

[crmalcolm]

I have to say I agree with FIRE on this one.
Having seen support races to BTCC that offered good racing, the cars just don't seem to have the appeal of a larger saloon.
For me, I'd much rather see an average race involving Insignia/Mondeo/C-Class/Integra size cars than a good race involving Clio/Mini/Astra/Civic size cars.

[Mike Sheraton]

same, but to be honest, the size of car will not change quality of racing, and if anyone shows major intestest in rwd, they will change rules, so we will get the fwd v rwd battles, offering different stengths

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I have to say I agree with FIRE on this one.
Having seen support races to BTCC that offered good racing, the cars just don't seem to have the appeal of a larger saloon.
For me, I'd much rather see an average race involving Insignia/Mondeo/C-Class/Integra size cars than a good race involving Clio/Mini/Astra/Civic size cars.

How bizarre... I'd never have thought I'd hear a race fan say that the physical size of a saloon car would supercede the quality of racing. I know people have preferences over the type and class - e.g. GP2 over F3, but surely not on car size ???!!??? Are you sure that your not confusing one-make [all the BTCC support classes are] against multi-make ?

Because saloon cars are designed to appeal to the buying public at large, and are not purposed race machines, their differences in their strengths and weaknesses are much broader than in other classes of racing. That's one f the reasons why they are so exciting to watch. Size being one of those characteristics - on some circuits, its a strength, on others its a weakness.

I would love to see a whole plethora of different cars from Clios to M3s and everything in between fight it out.

A reminder of how contrast extremes can result in some very exciting racing.

1971 Iberia Trophy from Crystal Palace

[dan290888]

im not particularly knowledgeable on BTCC before the ST years but i have the 88 (my birth year) review on video and i quite enjoyed the different classes. I think it would quite interesting seeing mondeo's, insignias etc in one class mixing it up with fiestas, corsas etc in another? maybe even a middle class for focus's and astras etc?

The lower class's may be cheaper to run? potentionally pulling in more competitors?

[andy97]

I don't think anyone is advocating different classes again, just the ability to have different size cars fight it out with each other in the same class.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by davyboy

How bizarre... I'd never have thought I'd hear a race fan say that the physical size of a saloon car would supercede the quality of racing. I know people have preferences over the type and class - e.g. GP2 over F3, but surely not on car size ???!!??? Are you sure that your not confusing one-make [all the BTCC support classes are] against multi-make ?

If I can clarify how I arrive at this viewpoint a bit further, it might make a bit more sense.
When watching a Go-Kart race, the racing seems fast, close and intense when they race on a tight narrow purpose-built track. Place the same Karts on a F1 sized track and half the appeal would be gone for me.

Relating this to cars, if all of the BTCC races were on tight tracks such as Knockhill, then a small car may carry as much appeal. Most of the BTCC rounds however are held on tracks that dwarf a smaller car, to the extent that even the Civics seem lost on the vast swathes of tarmac at circuits such as Brands, Silverstone, Donington, Rockingham etc..

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by davyboy

How bizarre... I'd never have thought I'd hear a race fan say that the physical size of a saloon car would supercede the quality of racing. I know people have preferences over the type and class - e.g. GP2 over F3, but surely not on car size ???!!??? Are you sure that your not confusing one-make [all the BTCC support classes are] against multi-make ?

Because saloon cars are designed to appeal to the buying public at large, and are not purposed race machines, their differences in their strengths and weaknesses are much broader than in other classes of racing. That's one f the reasons why they are so exciting to watch. Size being one of those characteristics - on some circuits, its a strength, on others its a weakness.

I would love to see a whole plethora of different cars from Clios to M3s and everything in between fight it out.

A reminder of how contrast extremes can result in some very exciting racing.

1971 Iberia Trophy from Crystal Palace

I have read here and on other forums more than once something like "don't like these shopping cars, I want to see cars like in Super Touring"

[KA]

Originally Posted by FIRE

I have read here and on other forums more than once something like "don't like these shopping cars, I want to see cars like in Super Touring"

I've expressed this opinion before when this subject has come up, and I reckon it has a lot to do with when people first started to watch touring cars- if you cut your teeth on SuperTouring, then a touring car is going to be a 2-litre 4-door saloon, and probably nothing else really makes the grade. If you only came to touring cars in the last few years with S2000, then you'll probably be more open to seeing hatches, coupes etc. If you're older, and go back to Group A or even before, then you might be more attuned to multi-class racing and a range of cars covering everything from big American V8s to Minis.

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by KA

If you're older, and go back to Group A or even before, then you might be more attuned to multi-class racing and a range of cars covering everything from big American V8s to Minis.

I'm not that old now

You could well be right. From a personal perspective, saloon car racing was something that always got my juices flowing on the road equivalent. For example, Dolomite Sprints, 3.0 Capris, Alfa GTV6s, Corolla GTs, BMW M3s, Sierra Cosworths, Cavalier GSi2000s etc... That wained somewhat through the ST and S2000 era, but I think what's really frustrated me is that most of the mainstream manufacturers appear to have abandoned touring car racing altogether and the cars now making up the grid on a world level are Korean 'Chevys' and Lada Prioras - the kind of car no self respecting race fan would ever consider buying. Whatever these NGT regs do, we can only hope that prestige brands like BMW are kept and that they're attractive enough for wide variety of mainstream cars to appear.

[V8 Fireworks]

Since Toyotas & Volkswagens are considered quality appliances they don't need to attract race fans to buy them - no doubt some or many, identify the "need" *cough* for a new car, then go straight to buy cars from these two brands without any consideration for other brands what-so-ever.

It doesn't really do BMW much good to be racing against discount brands, so is it a case that really only brands like Lada and (Korean) Chevrolet that need to improve the image of their 'sporty' alloy and bodykit equipped variants see any benefit?

[nickyf1]

Its important to have that brand recognition though, a Vauxhall fan will be more likey to consider buying the latest Insignia, whereas a fan of Dynamics will be more likely to consider buying a Honda, not that they will buy one, but they will always have a look at those cars, especialy if they have that connection with the brand.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

no more Hatches, so I will say Alfa 159, yes it will be nearly impossible, but who knows...

[davyboy]

Originally Posted by nickyf1

Its important to have that brand recognition though, a Vauxhall fan will be more likey to consider buying the latest Insignia, whereas a fan of Dynamics will be more likely to consider buying a Honda, not that they will buy one, but they will always have a look at those cars, especialy if they have that connection with the brand.

... and if a Lada WTCC fan actually considered buying a Priora, they'd probably be in need of a visit to the doctor

[nickyf1]

Yeah, but atleast being a fan of Lada is a semi-excuse

[matherto]

I was brought up on a diet of Super Touring so the same types of cars would be nice.

Insignia, Laguna, 159, A4, Accord, etc would be preferable for me.

But as long as we have more than just BMW vs Seat (and Chevy occasionally) all the time I'd be fine with that.

[Hawkwood]

I'd choose an Alfa Romeo 156.

I know they exist already, but I just love Alfa so if I could buy any touring car and go racing, I'd have one of those

[johnny99]

How much cheaper will a championship cost, and how much are they spending now.

John

[V8 Fireworks]

Didn't someone say that a privateer spends around 300,000 pounds.

Used car were said to be fairly cheap to buy, obviously not so cheap to run.

New cars? Chevrolet Cruze S2000 or Aston Martin DBRS9 - same coin I think. Hmmm which to buy and race - does a V12 aston not sound more enticing!!!??? Certainly thats a problem.

Why not this, for a new line-up:

Volvo S40 saloon (works team in STCC, satellite BTCC team)
SAAB saloon (works team in STCC, satellite BTCC team)
Toyota Corolla saloon
Proton Persona saloon (sedan version of Gen.2, what's the UK name?)
Alfa 159 saloon
KIA Cee'd saloon
Chevy Cruze saloon
Mazda3 saloon
Ford Focus saloon
Honda Civic saloon
Vauxhall Vectra saloon
Renault Laguna saloon
Nissan Maxima saloon
Lada saloon
Hyundai Elantra saloon
Skoda Octavia saloon
Volkswagen Jetta saloon

RWD class (weight penalty, different Hewland control gearbox for rear drivers)
BMW 320i
Mercedes C class
Lexus IS

AWD class (massive weight penalty, S2000 rally car based control transmission)
Mitsubishi Evolution
Subaru Impreza WRX (seperate control transmission for boxer layout)
Subaru Legacy
Audi A4


Gotta have the 19" wheels so the cars look mean in static display (say magnesium wheels banned, aluminium only, return to single wheel nut style), otherwise the NGTC specs.

Make it a cheap showcase for manufacturers. No dearer than 250,000 pounds per car per season, with 100,000 pounds for each car (both works and private) provided to the teams from series revenue (TV fee, sanction fees etc) in a V8 style system.

Nowadays the saloon versions of small cars meet the 4.4m, so not too many Camry sized cars would be likely to appear.


Unfortunately Suzuki don't make any cars large enough I think... a real shame to have a manufacturer intelligible like that when they could compete under the current S2000!

[Sodemo]

I don't see why they have to cost £100,000. Im sure they could produce a 300-400BHP racing saloon for around £50,000.

Just make the engines 2.5L road spec based turbos so they don't have to tune them that much.

Roll cage, big wheels, racing brakes, new suspension etc.