Crystal Palace

[chezza]

Lol...Sam you would say that! Oh I still have the Prince and I somewhere.

Good news that CP will be back on the calendar.

Slightly annoyed that the BSA are getting a look in, even if they're not for the first year as I was informed that it was going to be a "7oaks only event for at least the first year" when I asked if our club championship (local to the area) could include it in their calendar.

[ss_collins]

I'm sure that more details of the event will be made public by the relevant people closer to the date.

In the past the sprints at CP spread the entry fairly evenly so that both the spectators and the competitors got something out of it. I think that any event there would have some historic element to it and they did in the past.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by chezza

Lol...Sam you would say that! Oh I still have the Prince and I somewhere.

Good news that CP will be back on the calendar.

Slightly annoyed that the BSA are getting a look in, even if they're not for the first year as I was informed that it was going to be a "7oaks only event for at least the first year" when I asked if our club championship (local to the area) could include it in their calendar.

Fear not CHEZZA the BMSA will not take the SBD Motorsport British Sprint Championship to Crystal Palace in its first year. We would require to see the venue in operation first before committing to the venue hosting a round of our championship.

[Suze]

Rod Birley's memories of Crystal Palace were interesting and I'm glad Motorsport News decided to include these in their report. I personally hope that if CP does return we will see a variety of well engineered modern cars such as Rod's Escort and older cars compete.

[John Turner]

I thank Peter Mallett for closing this thread in the absence of any of the 'Historic' mods. I have now edited out all the 'off topic' posts and comments, and have now reopened the thread. Please stick to the topic indicated by its title!

[MG Rover Sport]

"Wakey wakey!" - talk about resurrecting an old thread!...

I recently acquired the photo below, and even though it was described as Doreen Evans in her MG K-type at either Donington or Crystal Palace, I am not entirely convinced!

Yesterday (with Vitesse's confirmation) I identified it as Crystal Palace, with the car in the middle of Big Tree Bend approaching the downhill right kink on New Zealand Hill with the bridge over to the Maze Hill Enclosure in the distance. Apparently, it is quite an unusual photo in that it was taken from the outside of Big Tree Bend - whereas most pictures of Big Tree are from the other direction according to Vitesse.

He also suggested that it might well be JHT Smith's MG K3, I quote...

"In which case it could be either the 1938 Empire Trophy or practice for the 1938 Sydenham Trophy : Smith failed to qualify for that. I don't have official entry lists for those, but 2 would fit an 1100cc car at either meeting."

That is the reason for this post. If anybody has any confirmation of the above suggestion, or alternatively any other answer to the : Car, Driver, Event, Entry List and Result debate, that would indeed be very much appreciated - many thanks.

[RAP]

I agree it is Crystal Palace. The British Empire Trophy was not at CP, I suspect the Imperial Trophy was meant.

"A Record of Motor Racing at Crystal Palace" by Formula One Register gives the entry list for every race at the Palace. My knowledfe of MGs is not that good do the "candidates" for no 2 being an MG are

1937 London GP L Brooke - Brooke-MG

1938 Coronation Trophy Bill Everitt K3
Sydenham Trophy Cuddon-Fletcher K3
London GP Cuddon Fletcher

1939 Sydenham Trophy Ian Nickols K3
Imperial Trophy Bill Esplen R type

RAP

[MG Rover Sport]

Many thanks 'RAP' for those events, names and cars. There is certainly a few more possibilities to look into in more detail there, so thank you for that.

This is the section of the Crystal Palace track - highlit in blue! - that I think we're looking at in the photo above. The red arrow represents the view from the photographer, and the two yellow blocks represent the mystery car in the foreground, and the other car in the distance on the other side of the Dunlop sponsored New Zealand Bridge. Right in the distance you can also see that the track bends to the left, and this matches up to the left hand Stadium Dip corner at Crystal Palace...

[jamesholland]

Originally Posted by RAP

I agree it is Crystal Palace. The British Empire Trophy was not at CP, I suspect the Imperial Trophy was meant.

"A Record of Motor Racing at Crystal Palace" by Formula One Register gives the entry list for every race at the Palace. My knowledfe of MGs is not that good do the "candidates" for no 2 being an MG are

1937 London GP L Brooke - Brooke-MG

1938 Coronation Trophy Bill Everitt K3
Sydenham Trophy Cuddon-Fletcher K3
London GP Cuddon Fletcher

1939 Sydenham Trophy Ian Nickols K3
Imperial Trophy Bill Esplen R type

RAP

It's not Cuddon-Fletcher's car as that had Lancia i.f.s.

[jamesholland]

Ian Nickols later drove the same (ex Parnell) car as Cuddon-Fletcher

[Vitesse]

Yes, I did mean the Imperial. Too many bloody Empire, Imperial and Coronation Trophies in those days.



As James says, it's not K3009 - which is also the car Everitt was driving.

It's not the Brooke Special either:

http://tjmetcalfe.com/brooke-era.html

R-types had central fuel fillers and I don't think any of them had major rear-end surgery of that description.

Ergo, probably not an MG? It's not the Appleton Special either.

[RAP]

In my earlier post I omitted the 1939 Stanley Cup Meeting and maybe therein lies the answer- could it be Stuart Wilton K3?
1939
Stanley Cup Meeting there was a 2 in each race but most were sports car, but
anyway - Fane (FN-BMW 328), Stone(Bentley), Dalton (Bentley), Lewin (MG 1356s), Shakespeare (Bug T55) Bochaton (McEvoy Hornet) D Greig (FN TT Rep)
Walker (Delahaye) W-Richards(30/98) Stuart Wilton (MG K3)

Anyway, lets widen the net and add all the non MGs, even those its obviously (?) not
1937 Coronation P Jucker Alta
Crystal Pal Cup Kay Petre Austin
Imperial R Mays ERA
1938
None (the low numbers were often in the sports car race)
1939
CP Cup A Hyde Riley 1089

[jamesholland]

I'm pretty sure it is an MG - the radiator shape is surely MG and I can' think of many other cars that had such a preponderance of "Bonora" fillers!

The twin exhaust pipes were a feature of the Q Type. Most of the K3s I've seen have a single pipe.

[MG Rover Sport]

Many thanks for the continued input chaps, it is very much appreciated.

I too am pretty sure it's an MG, but just what kind is the tricky bit. Quite a lot of the K3s with streamlined tails seem to have had twin fuel fillers fitted, although they tended to stick out quite high on long necks. However, if the bodywork has been raised at the back to accommodate the 'blister' behind the driver's head, then maybe that's why they aren't sitting quite so tall?

Also, that 'blister' seems very low to me - it only comes up to the driver's shoulders, making it look like he/she is actually sat ON the car rather than in it.

Do we think that the driver is male or female?

The number 2 on the side also seems quite unusual as it appears to be a mid tone circle with a white number outlined in a darker colour.

I have also emailed the Brooklands Society and their Archive to see if they recognise the car at all, and I have also sent an email to the seller asking how he knows that it is Doreen Evans in an MG K-type - as that is what he originally stated on his eBay listing.

[MG Rover Sport]

Hi RAP,

Would you mind checking your "A Record of Motor Racing at Crystal Palace" by Formula One Register for the following entry please, and let me know anything you can please?...

I.H. Nickols driving #2 MG J4 at Crystal Palace on 25 June 1938 - sorry, but I don't know what the meeting was called, only the date.

Many thanks.

[RAP]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

Hi RAP,

Would you mind checking your "A Record of Motor Racing at Crystal Palace" by Formula One Register for the following entry please, and let me know anything you can please?...

I.H. Nickols driving #2 MG J4 at Crystal Palace on 25 June 1938 - sorry, but I don't know what the meeting was called, only the date.

Many thanks.

My apologies - The 25 June 38 race was the London GP and I misread it, #2 was Nickols not, as I said in my earlier post, Cuddon Fletcher - he was no. 3

Sorry for failing to provide correct info and wasting people's time
RAP

[MG Rover Sport]

No problems whatsoever RAP - we're all human after all!

So do you have any results (Overall and/or Class) for Nickols at that meeting then?...

25 June : 1938 London Grand Prix @ Crystal Palace
#2 - I. H. Nickols - MG J4 Midget - ____________________

[RAP]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

No problems whatsoever RAP - we're all human after all!

So do you have any results (Overall and/or Class) for Nickols at that meeting then?...

25 June : 1938 London Grand Prix @ Crystal Palace
#2 - I. H. Nickols - MG J4 Midget - ____________________

In Heat 1 he was of course in the first group to start at 70" ahead of the scratchman (Louis Gerard Delage D6) and ran 3rd until lap 5 (of 10) when he dropped to 4th. On lap 8 he was passed by Maclure (Riley) and ended 5th, 20 secs behind winner Bira.

In the 16 lap Final the "limit " cars received 112". Lap 1 he was 5th of the 8 in his group of starters. The 1500s started to catch the limit cars after about 6 laps and he gradually fell back to 9th, still 5th of the "limit" cars. The winner was Bira from Dobson.

RAP

[MG Rover Sport]

Thanks for that RAP - you're a diamond!

Although I haven't got a clue what you're on about with you're...

...start at 70" / scratchman / limit cars / limit cars received 112"?

[RAP]

Originally Posted by MG Rover Sport

Thanks for that RAP - you're a diamond!

Although I haven't got a clue what you're on about with you're...

...start at 70" / scratchman / limit cars / limit cars received 112"?

Races at CP were mostly handicaps by groups (or class) eg at this meeting in the Final all the 1100cc cars started 112 sec before the last cars away (scratch cars), all the 1500cc cars started 16 sec before the scratch men ie 96 sec after the first (limit) cars. In effect there were 3 concurrent class races going on with the bigger, and therefore theoretically faster, cars catching up.

Thus Rose-Itier, Nickols, Cuddon-Fletcher, Stuart Wilton, Esplen, Smith, Everitt & Wilson all started together, then 96 sec later Bira, Dobson, Abecassis etc, then 16 sec later Kennerth Evans & L Gerard.

Note that this is quite different from the BARC Brooklands where each car/driver was individually handicapped to equalise thei performance of each car/driver combination. At CP the handicaps were published in the regs and the handicapper sought to equalise a good 1100, a good 1500 and a good Unl.

[MG Rover Sport]

That is superb RAP, and I'm pleased to say that it makes perfect sense now!

So there is really only one thing missing now - any other photos of this particular MG J4 Midget so that we can confirm that we're talking about the exact same car and entry.

Anybody?

[MG Rover Sport]

I have just acquired another original period photo, and could do with some assistance collating as many details as possible on the subject.

All I know is that it is an MG RA-Type, and that it was possibly taken at Crystal Palace in the late 1930s. It came from the same source as my other recent photo discussed over the last few pages - it even has the same photographer's stamp on the reverse.

As there are so many links between the two images - Crystal Palace, John Everard Ltd (the photographer), and the late 1930s, I wonder if this too was taken at the 25 June 1938 London Grand Prix meeting?

Checking the results from the event I noticed that Bill Esplen was entered (with W Wilkinson?) in the same meeting in an MG RA-Type (RA0256) at Nº12, and finished 8th in Heat 2 and 8th In the Final.

As such, have I just answered my own question before anyone else has had an opportunity to submit anything?

[MG Rover Sport]

Does anyone recognise this as Crystal Place, if so which corner?

[Vitesse]

Looks like the photographer has crossed the track and walked a little way back towards the Pond Hairpin. The car appears to be coming out of the long curve between Pond and Big Tree.

[MG Rover Sport]

Many thanks 'Vitesse' - that is very helpful.



The above image has been reposted as a reminder to my previous request!

I have just received two of a three-part 1957 Autosport article (annoyingly Parts 1 & 3!) entitled 'Racing with a 750cc MG' by Ian Nickols', and there are some quite lovely photos within the articles which also show Nickols' ex-Rex King-Clarke 'Monoposto' MG J4 Midget (J4007) in assorted situations.

Of relevance to this topic is this one Crystal Palace image showing Nickols (2) during the very same 1938 London Grand Prix meeting - apparently the only time he drove the 750cc at the London circuit, according to his article! - alongside Percy Maclure's Riley (9)...



If there is anything of note within the middle missing Part 2 of the article, I will be sure to post the details here.

Apart from finding some further images of the car in question, it was also nice to find a front image of the car, one of it racing at the same meeting as my original photo, and a couple that also show Nickols in the identical dark jacket/overalls and light/white helmet.

Many thanks for everyone's help and assistance to date. It just proves what a wealth of knowledge there is out there amongst the members.