BAR Penalty/FIA appeal (merged ,split, merged again!)

[Kirk]

My cynical side speaks:

I look for a weak-kneed excuse NOT to penalize BAR in any way other than maybe relieving them of a few pence from their bottomless pocketbook.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Dixie Flatline

Almost certainly the other nine constructors will be named as defendants in BAR's legal action. This is what Minardi did when it launched proceedings against the FIA (I have obtained a copy of the writ from the Supreme Court of Victoria).

The fact (or otherwise) that BAR have the other 9 (?) teams on their side is neither here nor there.

As we all know,even with the say-so of the other teams (which wasn't unanimous) Minardi were not allowed(even with the court ruling in its favour)to race at Melbourne in 2004 spec.Simply because the cars would not have complied with the tech regs.

Will BAR comply with the tech regs,have they ever complied with the tech regs?

[Adam43]

Well they weren't named as defendents and why would they be? The FIA seem to have found out via Renault too! I think that is a case of mixing up two situations, not everything in F1 is related to a political motive (or the same political motive)!

I see Williams and McLaren sent representatives to observe, but that was it.

[Inigo Montoya]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

I feel there's more to this than meets the eye.?
funny how a possible contender to Ferrari is on the verge of getting booted out
who's next.- A total shame to the sport. i for one am loseing interest in F1 nothing but political arguments.

This is a matter that concerns the FIA and BAR. How can it possibly be twisted to include Ferrari? Lets try to keep the discussion rooted in reality.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

This is a matter that concerns the FIA and BAR. How can it possibly be twisted to include Ferrari? Lets try to keep the discussion rooted in reality.

Alonso seems to think Ferrari should be included www.f1racing.net .

Your Spanish,your in Spain,your main competitor is Ferrari.What are you going to tell your people?

[Sodemo]

I dont understand FIA decisions.
In 2000 the FIA gathered knowledge of which "at least one team cheated in 2000 by using illegal Traction Control", this was thought to be a team either beginning with a B or F, but weren't named by the FIA, why is this?

Now the FIA are labelling BAR as cheaters...?

[Inigo Montoya]

That is a seperate matter martyn- Alonso thinks that Ferrari is breaking a testing agreement (which, in fact, does not exist). It has nothing to do with the FIA accusing BAR of cheating because, as the other poster implied, they are a rival of Ferrari.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Inigo Montoya

That is a seperate matter martyn- Alonso thinks that Ferrari is breaking a testing agreement (which, in fact, does not exist). It has nothing to do with the FIA accusing BAR of cheating because, as the other poster implied, they are a rival of Ferrari.

Alonso has told the Spanish people that Ferrari are cheating,that's all they need to know.It's what he will have been told to say.Get it .

[gttouring]

i can't beieve this all- They would be fined 1 million Euros- (not much for BAR)
and excluded from the CHampionship!!
"The FIA has asked BAR to be thrown out of the 2005 formula 1 world championship after accusing the team of cheating at the recent san marino gran prix."
HOlY BEDSHEETS! can they do that? Honda being kicked out i feel this can be potentially crippling for the Championship at this point, after all IRL and F1 and a host of other series (LeMans) would love to get the full force of Honda to support them, and how could they miss such infractions?
this is sheer madness

[Adam43]

That is, of course, the extreme of what may happen.

The summing up explained that two things need to be considered. Was the car illegal, was it a blatant attempt to cheat. If it was the latter in the extreme then the extreme punishment will be applied. If not then it won't be.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by gttouring

i can't beieve this all- They would be fined 1 million Euros- (not much for BAR)
and excluded from the CHampionship!!
"The FIA has asked BAR to be thrown out of the 2005 formula 1 world championship after accusing the team of cheating at the recent san marino gran prix."
HOlY BEDSHEETS! can they do that? Honda being kicked out i feel this can be potentially crippling for the Championship at this point, after all IRL and F1 and a host of other series (LeMans) would love to get the full force of Honda to support them, and how could they miss such infractions?
this is sheer madness

They kicked Toyota out of WRC,so why should they show mercy to the might of Honda?

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by The Monster

I dont understand FIA decisions.
In 2000 the FIA gathered knowledge of which "at least one team cheated in 2000 by using illegal Traction Control", this was thought to be a team either beginning with a B or F, but weren't named by the FIA, why is this?

Now the FIA are labelling BAR as cheaters...?

B or F,wonder who that could be then.

[grandprixdiary]

Just heard Gary Anderson on the radio, who thought that while BAR had stretched the rules a bit, that a ban for the season was unlikely. If (and I use the word IF carefully) BAR are guilty as charged, then I assume they will lose the points gained at Imola, pay the FIA a decent wedge and at worse will possibly miss Spain.

We'll find out tomorrow..

Rob

[Adam43]

Obviously the conspiracies are comelling, but that was different in the ways it was policed. The BAR evidence is based on simple measurements. Detecting the TC, that was a whole different kettle of fish.

Again the important thing in this case is not whether it is comaprable to another situation (either alledged, proven, let off or punished), but rather whether the BAR was outside the rules.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by grandprixdiary

Just heard Gary Anderson on the radio, who thought that while BAR had stretched the rules a bit, that a ban for the season was unlikely.

Yes. The two questions are, and always have been, was the BAR illegal AND was there a desire to cheat. The first decides whether they are guilty. The second by how much and what the punishment is.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by grandprixdiary

Just heard Gary Anderson on the radio, who thought that while BAR had stretched the rules a bit, that a ban for the season was unlikely. If (and I use the word IF carefully) BAR are guilty as charged, then I assume they will lose the points gained at Imola, pay the FIA a decent wedge and at worse will possibly miss Spain.

We'll find out tomorrow..

Rob

So what's stretching the rules a bit.BAR say that the car will not operate below 600KGs.Does that mean that as soon as the car reaches exactly 600KGs not a gram more or less the car ceases to function.Or does it mean that whilst not running at peak performance,it is still able to cough and splutter around for a couple more laps?

I suppose if they are found guilty,but not excluded,they'll have to add another 5.6KGs to their cars on Friday.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"Yes. The two questions are, and always have been, was the BAR illegal AND was there a desire to cheat. The first decides whether they are guilty. The second by how much and what the punishment is."

Absolutely.
If it's a mistake, a fine and a race ban will suffice. If it's deliberate, then exclusion.
As a fan of F1, i prefer to see many competitive cars and a full grid though..
but if they deem it serious enough for such drastic actions, i guess there's little we can do. Any deliberate cheating should be rightly handled.

However, this may have some serious implications to Honda's future participation in FIA events, and a huge blow.

As for Alonso's statement, i can only say it's tasteless, ill-informed, and open to being sued for slander. There's no rules, nothing to govern, just a tiring and stupid baseless argument that they try to use to degrade Ferrari. To call that cheating is just showing an inability to speak with proper thinking. But i guess many senseless souls would buy the nonsense sold to them. Bring Ferrari to court then...and see how Alonso or them get booted out by the judge..LOL

[Don K]

Originally Posted by martyn bott

B or F,wonder who that could be then.

In the 2000 season?

As far as I can see, there were 5 teams starting with a B or F:

Ferrari
Williams/BMW
Benetton/Playlife
BAR/Honda
Minardi/Fondmetal

Does anybody have a list of the official team names?

[Kempi]

How can a court in London deside wether the conclusion FIA (which, as far as I know, is based in Switzerland) reach in France is wrong and then allow BAR to race in Spain?

It is probably covered in the Concorde Agreement. You can agree on the location of a court by contract.

[gfm]

Apparently, because it's proven that Button's car was running light at the end of last GP due to an 'old' interpretation of the rules, the FIA are calling for the team to be banned from the rest of the season. Is this rather like sending Beckham off in an international - we pay the money to watch top sports people and the powers that be decide they can't play - do we get our money back?

[SetikX]

Originally Posted by Don K

In the 2000 season?

As far as I can see, there were 5 teams starting with a B or F:

Ferrari
Williams/BMW
Benetton/Playlife
BAR/Honda
Minardi/Fondmetal

Does anybody have a list of the official team names?

^ Clearly it was Minardi mate. Duh! (obvious joke, dont sue Ten-tenths or myself for slander lol!)


ANYWAY .... I honestly think the FIA has other motives. Seems extremely harsh IMHO that this is happening. For example, consider these three things;

a) Break-away series - chasing a team like Honda out of the formula (1) may infact further help the cause for a break-away series. Honda is perhaps one of the top four players in this breakaway series, and ****ing them off will just add fuel to fire.

b) the FIA is keeping confidential that other teams may or may not be doing this. Using a thinking pattern that suggests if there was no other teams involved, the FIA would have named BAR as blatant standalone cheaters and thus, would have answered the question with "no". This suggests that there are other teams involved.

Using b), it is likely to assume that either; BMW Williams, Ferrari, Williams, Renault, Mclaren, or RedBull could be in the same boat. Ignoring the conspiracies surrounding Ferrari and FIA being married;

Renault - if indeed it was Renault who was using the 'stretched rules', the only, and i mean ONLY incentive FIA has of allowing renault to continue racing is to please the fans who are enjoying such a winning streak.

(Keep in mind we are ignoring the FIA / Ferrari conspiracy claims, but if we werent, this makes no sense as FIA would not want Renault beating ferrari).

Williams - Well, our beloved Williams was in the podium courtecy of Heidfield so; if infact they were party to this 'cheating', surely the FIA would have pounced on them. Or, was BAR the main player?

Anyway, the Mclaren has also been a car which long filled and was out on the track longer then most, so I dont think they would push for this advantage. However, the two pedal breaking system they engineered (which ferrari wanted banned), didnt get them evicted from the championship, so perhaps they thought they could write this off as a technical evolution, rather then a blatant cheat.


Anyway, basically what I am saying is, it makes no sense to me that the other top teams (perhaps maybe ferrari, but Im not going to be part of the fellow pitty party that blames the worlds wars on ferrari). But then again, we didnt suspect BAR.


c) It makes no sense at all for the FIA to ban BAR. It loses potential fan bases (or gains, perhaps they are pushing for an 'action formula1, where dc slugs it with random new comers, and teams deviously plan elaborate cheating methods in smoke filled rooms!!!') but seriously, Button brings alot of supporters to f1's pocket, and I bet the lay viewer wouldnt understand this, and many of them may turn off if Button were to be banned. Same if Webber was banned, many Aussies here would shut off to f1.

Another question. IF!! BAR is banned from 2005, does that mean they can stilll practice? Cause, starting the 2006 car... wait, the regulations arnt finalised yet. What a bloody crock, that means no teams can start on the 2006 car. Sigh. Anyway!

[nkh]

Originally Posted by SetikX

b) the FIA is keeping confidential that other teams may or may not be doing this. Using a thinking pattern that suggests if there was no other teams involved, the FIA would have named BAR as blatant standalone cheaters and thus, would have answered the question with "no". This suggests that there are other teams involved.

Um, no, if FIA isn't 100% sure that no other teams are using the device then the correct answer is the one FIA gave. If FIA didn't look inside the tank of all the cars at Imola, then they can't be sure that be sure they're not using the same trick. So you can't read anything from that answer.

Originally Posted by SetikX

c) It makes no sense at all for the FIA to ban BAR. It loses potential fan bases (or gains, perhaps they are pushing for an 'action formula1, where dc slugs it with random new comers, and teams deviously plan elaborate cheating methods in smoke filled rooms!!!') but seriously, Button brings alot of supporters to f1's pocket, and I bet the lay viewer wouldnt understand this, and many of them may turn off if Button were to be banned. Same if Webber was banned, many Aussies here would shut off to f1.

I do hope and believe that BARs fan bases has no effect at all on the outcome. If BAR intentionaly cheated then they should get the same peanalty as TTE got in rally (who, if I remember correctly, were a top team in a class which needed more manufactures at the time).

[Marbot]

I can't see there just being a fine.Like BE says,a fine would not be sufficient.

"The teams could write us a cheque at the start of the season and say to us that you can cash it if you catch us cheating!"

[LongJohnSilver]

As I read the granprix.com summary, I dont see how BAR can be found guilty. I think that Jo Bauer's (the FIA F1 Technical Delegate) statement is very important.

Originally Posted by Grandprix.com

"We have been aware of that since the Malaysian Grand Prix this year," he said.
...
When asked by one of the judges whether the system was legal according to the regulations, Bauer replied that it was.

Also

Originally Posted by Grandprix.com

[Pannick] went on to argue that the weighing procedures in the rules state that one should add nothing to nor take anything out of the car and that by removing fuel from the collector tank the FIA had created a car that could not be raced.

As I read it, case closed...

[avsfan733]

according to f1live's aritcle, it is up to BAR to prove legality...now by my understanding, BAR was declared legal at Imola, so wouldn't it be the FIA's job as they are the plaintiff and BAR the defendant? Innocent until proven guilty?

This to me has always sounded like the police telling you you did nothign wrong but the Courts chargin you anyways

EDIT: and after reading the summary of the case, I really do believe this is the FIA with some secondary agenda...and I'm a Ferrari Fan. I mean come on, what next are we gonna weigh the car without tires because they might get changed during the weekend. The weigth of the car ready to run without a tank of Fuel is 600kg now I admit the BAR position is adventorous and goes against practice but they aren't arguing for it to be weighed full of fuel, they are arguing that they have a certain amount of standing fuel in the car at all times to make it run properly. This is a collector tank which is probably a neccesity at the g's they pull. A holding tank full of uel is one thing, the collector i personally believe is an integral part of the running of the car, not a simple holding tank