Yellow Flags

[FilW]

When seeing a waved yellow we are "supposed to slow down, have proper control of the car, not overtake and be ready to deviate from the racing line" or words to that effect.
How many drivers do? Last weekend at the new drivers briefing at Donington, the CoC said he wanted to see us back off at waved yellows. Fair enough, thats what the blue book says to do, but I was disappointed to be overtaken under waved yellows on three or four occasions. I want to keep my nose clean in my first season but I also want to finish as high as possible, so from the drivers point of view what is an "acceptable" response to waved yellows ie what can we get away with? Cheers.

[chezza]

As a word of warning to all drivers/riders: Many tracks are taking a dim view of overtaking under waved yellows. Marshals are being encouraged to look out for and report any occurances. So odds on if u do it u'll be spotted and reported...so be warned!!!

[Peter Mallett]

You can't "get away" with anything. However I suspect that what you are doing is backing off and braking or at least slowing rather more dramatically than you maybe should. That is possibly why drivers are passing you. If they've been fined for the move then they are in the wrong but the whole thing is about having proper control of the car.

[simon drabble]

in that situation I think you would be justified in overtaking them agn as there should be no advantage gained by yellow flags certainly if I overtake some by accident in this situation I will try get them to overtake me agn so I dont get a trip to the headmaster! The only place I have seen this completely ignored was in Chimay last year wheer it seemed anything went including practising when the road was open again to the public!!

[Dave Brand]

I'm glad it was a driver who brought this up!

A marshal's perspective:

First point - unless the incident has just happened, you will have passed a stationary yellow,so you will not be suddenly confronted with a waved yellow. The stationary yellow is where you should start to slow down. Don't slow down drastically or brake hard, particularly in traffic - with one incident to deal with, we don't need another!

If you're being overtaken under yellows, one of two things is happening - either you're slowing down too quickly or the drivers behind you are ignoring the yellow flag. Sadly, my limited experience suggests that the latter may be more likely.

Any incident of overtaking under yellows will be reported by the observer whose sector it occurs on, although most observers will exercise a certain amount of discretion.

Just remember that the yellow flag is a safety flag; if it's waved, there's somebody in trouble & in need of attention from the marshals; the next time, it could be you! Flaggies don't wave yellows just for fun.......

[Mark Benson]

I noticed the same thing at Donnington at the weekend too (Locosts) - it was my first meeting and I was surprised at the amount of passing going on under yellows.
I thought it was me being naive, there was a lot of what I would call 'accidentally on purpose' passing, ie. you see the yellow up ahead and slow just a bit later than the guy in front so you can always claim to have seen the flag a fraction too late.....

[Bob Pearson]

As it happens this subject was dealt with at length on the Marshals post recently, in fact so recently that it is still just on the first page. There are 104 posts to go through!!

[FilW]

Any incident of overtaking under yellows will be reported by the observer whose sector it occurs on, although most observers will exercise a certain amount of discretion.

And then what happens??. Is there any action taken such as endorsements, time penalties, public floggings etc...

Going down Wheatcroft Straight I was trying to overtake the car in front but there was a waved yellow at the finish line so lifted slightly and tucked back in behind only to passed by two cars before the green at the end of the straight. How is that viewed by an observer and would I know if it had been spotted?

[Bob Pearson]

Gesticulate at the car which passed you as you pass the next marshal's post and always air your greviance with the Cof C after the race/qualifying. Even if he does nothing at least he realises that his actions, or lack of are being monitored by drivers and the pressure on him to get his act right is greater.
It often depends on the club running the meeting, some have Clerks considerably better than others.

[gfm]

FilW - no doubt you've learned then, that if yellows are out, you need to 'block' any overtaking opportunity as you slow, to the point of filling the circuit on the 'inside' of the guy in front. Don't 'tuck back in behind'. And then the green flag is a restart situation and you are the one who needs to engineer the space whereby you get a run on the guy in front and again block those behind. You need to be safety conscious and active in creating space for when the green is on the next post. Rolling starts are good practice.
If they do get past then, of course report them. All part of the game.

[Teletubby]

I have seen the suggestion that you should raise your hand to indicate that you have seen the flag and to show following drivers that you are slowing, this should make them passing you even more obvious!

[gfm]

Quite right - that's OK for the slowing down bit, but if I read FilW correctly, what ****es him of is getting back on it after passing the incident and having guys get by at the green flag. At which point you don't really want your hand up unless, as Bob suggested, you're trying to let the next marshal's post know they got the jump on you or passed illegally. By which time it's too late.

[Bob Pearson]

gfm, it often isn't too late, I suspect that marshals see virtually all of these incidents, but like in all groups, some are more concienscious than others. If the observer was going to turn a blind eye for some reason, the knowledge that you are upset by what has happened and so likely to take it further could well oblige him to report it.
It has worked for me a few times over the years.

[Dave Brand]

Action on overtaking under yellow is dependent on the CoC. Without an observer's report, he can do nothing.

Not all transgressions are reported. To report an overtake it's necessary to be able to identify both cars, which means, of course, knowing their numbers. In many instances, particularly single-seaters, the number of one car is obscured by the other car; it's no good reporting 'car 54 overtook a red car...'! In many instances, particularly when manning levels are low, the marshals on the post where the incident occurred will be too busy dealing with the mess to look closely at what the drivers on the track are doing.

Frustrating, innit!

[Chigley]

Agreed Dave, but flaggies are usually very attentive to what is happening on the track during yellow periods, especially looking out for overtaking and trangressors are inveriably reported. Besides looking out for the safety of the guys on track we also take a dim view of drivers who fail to comply with flag signals, after all isn't that one of the main reasons we are there.

[Lee Janotta]

Originally posted by Dave Brand
Flaggies don't wave yellows just for fun.......

That's what the blues are for!

*joking!*

[Peter Mallett]

Originally posted by gfm
FilW - no doubt you've learned then, that if yellows are out, you need to 'block' any overtaking opportunity as you slow, to the point of filling the circuit on the 'inside' of the guy in front. Don't 'tuck back in behind'. And then the green flag is a restart situation and you are the one who needs to engineer the space whereby you get a run on the guy in front and again block those behind. You need to be safety conscious and active in creating space for when the green is on the next post. Rolling starts are good practice.
If they do get past then, of course report them. All part of the game.

Couldn't put it better myself.

[Stephen Green]

Let me give you my views as an Observer. If I or any of my team see cars being overtaken under any yellow flag (waved or stationary) then I will initially tepehone the incident to race control. That is backed up by a written report, handed to the C of the C at the end of the session/race. It is then up to the judiciary to take whatever action they see fit. It could be having your times disallowed and sent to the back of the grid, a fine, endorsement or even in severe circumstances, being thrown out of the meeting.

As Dave and others have said above, it is viewed as a big NO NO to overtake under yellow flags because there is a real chance there may be marshals trackside. We have to trust drivers to take the right action as much as you have to trust us not to make unneccesary flagh signals...teamwork huh!

[Stephen Green]

sorry for my rubbish typing

[DarrellB]

As a warning of what may happen if overtaking under yellows or not slowing sufficiently just watch the end of the brazillian GP. This should be enough of a warning to drivers about heeding the yellow flags!!

[Lee Janotta]

Yeah, Alonso's crash should be used as a textbook example of why you pay attention to the yellows!

[EvilPumpkin]

Well you would think so - but I have to say I was surprised to see the following post in the discussion in the F1 forum on this:

When a driver sees a yellow flag the don't expect the track to be blocked

One wonders what people THINK the yellow flag means?

[Peter Mallett]

On that subject I believe the reds should have been shown immediately. Whether that would have worked better is a matter for conjecture.

Don't forget that in F1 these days a driver will see yellows and without the SC board think its something to the side of the track. Certainly in this case Alonso was coming up a steep rise which I understand has a blind brow so would most likely be concentrating on his line through the unseen corner.

A good example is Kimi in qualifying at Spa last year. Remember the cloud of smoke at Radillonand his foot flat to the floor?

I may not agree with the principle but I think in F1 there is a difference in attitudes towards the yellows and I also think that because of the safety car regs there is now some confusion.

[EvilPumpkin]

I don't disagree with anything you're saying Peter, but at the same time, I think the danger of having a "difference in attitude towards the yellows" has now been demonstrated extremely effectively.

It's not just in F1 that this blase approach to yellows occurs - it's from the club racing upwards. And every time someone ploughs into a clearly signalled obstruction because they didn't slow down, everything is blamed from the circuit to the flag marshal to the rain - but no-one ever blames the driver for not doing what they're supposed to do and slow down.

The bottom line is that flags are there for a reason - as Dave has said, we don't put them out for the laugh. The tolerant view that most people seem to have of disobeying yellows disturbs me greatly - comments like the one I put in here and another one I saw recently "no-one seriously expects a driver to slow down for yellows" If this attitude persists, sooner or later someone is going to die.

Non-adherence to yellows needs to be heavily penalised and organising clubs themselves need to emphasise to drivers the importance to their own safety of not ignoring these flags.

[Peter Mallett]

But the point EP, is that you don't slow down in such a manner as to destabilise the car. That is a given and as such when there is something across the track it should be reds not yellows. And who is to say that Alonso wasn't slowing?

We mustn't get holier than thou in this case but yes. If yellows are waved we should slow down in a safe and controlled manner and be prepared to stop.

As I said Alonso was concentracting on his line through a blind bend and probably didn't have a chance to see the tyre in his way (I know Fisi and Kimi saw it).

So I believe there is as much culpability on the Stewards part for not being quick enough with the red flags.