1950's Formula inquiry

[f1_smiley]

During the start of the FIA WC in the 1950's...
What's the diff between Formula A or Formula 1 to Formula 2 cars? Weren't they running in the same race, something similar to Le Mans where they have mixed classes?

During the pre-war years, what constituted a race to be appellated a GP/Grand Prix?

TIA, just nutting around.

[Morris 1100]

Formula A was the name first coined for what became Formula 1, the name "Formula A" was only used by a few reporters to try and look clever!

Formula 1 (or A) was 1.5 litre supercharged.
or 4.5 litre normaly aspirated.

Formula 2 was 2 litre normaly aspirated.

[f1_smiley]

tnx morris....
would anyone know of any good book titles i can search and buy on the pre-war and early historic f1?

[esorniloc]

Wasn't Formula A later used for F5000 class cars in the US? Wasn't there also a Formula B?

[strad]

Here is a link to D.Davids bookreview and reading list...you could do worse..check it out ....here

[f1_smiley]

ditto on that strad

[Rob29]

Originally posted by esorniloc
Wasn't Formula A later used for F5000 class cars in the US? Wasn't there also a Formula B?

Formula A,B & C were introduced by the SCCA for US club racing 1n 1964.FA was for old F1 cars,later allowing 5000cc stock blocks.
FB was 1600cc. FC the old Formula Junior 1100cc.John Webb,then boss of Brands Hatch group,introduced FA in Britain in 1969 and called it F5000.SCCA later copied the name.In 1971 Webb did not like the sound of the new F3 so introduced FB called F.Atlantic.

[D-Type]

If I was asked to recommend one book, I would suggest "The Complete History of Grand Prix motor racing" by Adriano Cimarosti, Aurum 1990, ISBN 1 85410500 0

In the early years there were not that many cars available and organisers would amit Formula 2 cars to fill out the grid. In some cases there was a separate class for F2 cars but not always.

In 1952 and 1953 with the withdrawal of Alfa Romeo and the unreliability of BRM, the championship was run for Formula 2 cars.

Prewar and immediately postwar anybody could give a race the title Grand Prix. Normally the premier event in a country would be called the Grand Prix but there were also established subsidiary races such as the Pau Grand Prix. Some grands prix were for sports cars such as the 1938 French GP. The Belgians sometimes gave the Spa 24 Hours race for sports or touring cars the title of belgian GP. Le Mans was titled the Grand Prix d'Endurance.

I hope this helps

[esorniloc]

Originally posted by Rob29
Formula A,B & C were introduced by the SCCA for US club racing 1n 1964.FA was for old F1 cars,later allowing 5000cc stock blocks.
FB was 1600cc. FC the old Formula Junior 1100cc.John Webb,then boss of Brands Hatch group,introduced FA in Britain in 1969 and called it F5000.SCCA later copied the name.In 1971 Webb did not like the sound of the new F3 so introduced FB called F.Atlantic.

Thanks

[Neptune]

Actually, SCCA proposed the Frmula A, B & C classes in December 1964 for the 1965 season. What this means is that under SCCA rules, FJr lasted one more year than the FIA international FJr. I saw my first FJr race at Mid-Ohio in May 1964. By then too, FIA had one year of the new 1000cc F2 and F3 and these cars were then OK for FC too, since the engine was simply restricted to 1100cc, no induction or camshaft limitations. Eventually, Cosworth made the BDJ engine just for this classs and it was the zenith of the class which continued on unchanged through 1978, and with major changes exists today as a sub-group of F Continental.

Roger

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by D-Type
If I was asked to recommend one book, I would suggest "The Complete History of Grand Prix motor racing" by Adriano Cimarosti, Aurum 1990, ISBN 1 85410500 0

....and/or, if you have deep pockets, William Court's "Power and Glory". Out of print, but there's a copy on eBay at the moment: starting bid is £40, but I think it will go higher than that .....

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...category=48443

[f1_smiley]

Originally posted by D-Type
If I was asked to recommend one book, I would suggest "The Complete History of Grand Prix motor racing" by Adriano Cimarosti, Aurum 1990, ISBN 1 85410500 0

thanks D....
wanted to share this info from amazon.... image clips of the book...

Amazon.com Books: The Complete History of Grand Prix Motor Racing

thans Vit....
i'll watch out for that one as well... i think i saw one locally...

[Don Capps]

Originally posted by Morris 1100
Formula A was the name first coined for what became Formula 1, the name "Formula A" was only used by a few reporters to try and look clever!

Quite the other way around, I am afraid, Mr. Morris. It was intially dubbed the "International Racing Forumula A" by the CSI and somewhere along the line it generally became referred to more and more as "Formula I" by the Press and eventually even the CSI changed it to reflect this.

Formula SCCA was created during the latter part of 1964, after a study was conducted on open-wheeled racing within the SCCA. As a result, Frormula SCCA came into being, effective with the 1965 season.

Three classes:

A: 1,601cc to 3,000cc, minimum weight of 1,105 pounds

B: 1,101cc to 1,600cc, minimum weight of 848 pounds

C: up to 1,100cc, minimum weight of 750 pounds

Announcement in Sports Car for June 1967 (volume XXV, number 6, page 6 for the SCCA Grand Prix Championship:

• Points awarded on 9-6-4-3-2-1 for overall finishing position
• Three-fourths of events count towards final accumulation of points
• Open to cars meeting the specifications for Formula SCCA classes A, B, and C in Appendix A of SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR)
• Minimum race purse of $5,000
• Minimum distance for each race of 75 miles
• Events organized and conducted in accordance with SCCA GCR
• Drivers must hold either a SCCA National License or an FIA License


Starting in 1968, in addition to 3-litre unrestricted engines, 5-litre stock-block engines will be allowed in Formula A. Change takes effect on 1 January 1968.

• Engines must be approved by SCCA, be of US-manufacture, pushrod-operated, and produced in a quantity of at least 5,000 per year.
• Engine may be modified or altered as desired except
• Maximum displacement cannot exceed 5,000cc and may be obtained by alteration of bore or stroke as desired
• Cylinder(s) heads and/or cylinder block cannot be substituted
• Location of the camshaft cannot be changed
• Number of main bearings cannot be changed
• Self-starter required
• Superchargers are not permitted
• Minimum weight including coolant and lubricants, excluding fuel and driver, is 1,250lbs
• Maximum fuel capacity is 30 gallons

Effective 1 January 1968, maximum fuel capacity of SCCA Grand Prix Championship cars is:
• Class A/ 5,000cc engine – 30 gallons
• Class A/ 3,000cc engine – 26 gallons
• Class B – 19 gallons
• Class C – 16 gallons

SCCA Approved Engines for Formula SCCA, Class A
Displacements of approved engines, cylinder head and block material cast iron except were noted:

American Motors: 287, 290, 327, 343
Buick: 215 (aluminum), 300, 340, 250
Chevrolet: 282, 302, 307, 327, 350
Chrysler: 340
Dodge: 273, 318, 361
Ford: 260, 289, 302 (not tunnel port), 353
Kaiser Jeep: 327
Mercury: 260, 289, 302 (not tunnel port)
Oldsmobile: 215 (aluminum), 330, 350
Plymouth: 273, 318, 361
Pontiac: 326, 350

[Corktree]

It should be pointed out that, contrary to the practice since 1981, the regulations for the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs (World Championship of Drivers) and the Formule Internationale no. 1 (International Racing Formula No. 1) were separate and very distinct things. Not until the 1961 season was it stated that the World Championship of Drivers would be contested using the Formule Internationale, although later provisions were made for the inclusion of cars of other formulae into the championship if necessary.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by Corktree

Not until the 1961 season was it stated that the World Championship of Drivers would be contested using the Formule Internationale, although later provisions were made for the inclusion of cars of other formulae into the championship if necessary.

Well, up until then (start of '61 season) we had such oddities as the Indy 500 being part of the World Drivers Championship, even though very few drivers covered that race and also other Championship GP's in that period. The cars were obviously totally different in their regulations, as were the engines. We have nonsensical stats such as Offenhauser engines, with 11 wins, have won more Championship races than Matra, Repco, Maserati (equal with Mazza) and some of the iconic names of F1. They have competed more 'championship' laps and miles than say BMW engines, even Mercedes engines. Yet for most current fans of F1 (certainly outside the US) Offenhauser would be unknown as a name

[Corktree]

I would certainly take exception to the use of the word "nonsense" given that its use demonstates the usual lack of awareness as to the particular nature of the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs from its beginnings in 1950 until 1960. The incorporation of the "International 500 Mile Sweepstakes" event was a very deliberate attempt by the CSI to ensure that the United States was included in the new championship, to have at least one round outside Europe. The technical regulations of the Formule Internationale during the 1947-1953 period and those of the Contest Board of the American Automobile Association for its National Championship did not differ as much as most seem to think. It is not difficult to do a bit of research and demonstate that the vast majority of the cars actually competing in the National Championship as being able to conform to the Formule Internationale during that period.

It is both inaccurate and anachronistic to equate the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs and the Formule Internationale as being one and the same during this period. Even from 1961 to 1980, the two were separate entities. Therefore, whether one likes it or not, which is irrelevant, the Meyer-Drake Offenhauser is correctly credited with being used in eleven of the wins credited under the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs.

Keep in mind that in Europe during the 1952 and 1953 seasons that the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs was conducted using machines conforming to the Formulae Internationale no. 2 rather than the Formule Internationale. This was possible since, as would be the case for the Indianapolis event from 1954 to 1960, the CSI designated the events to be run for the championship and the organizing club then deciding which formula to use. In 1952, the CSI simply acquiesced to the overwhelming choice of the clubs, although it did have the option to simply not hold the championship that season.

It is revisionistic history of the worst sort to exclude the Indianapolis events from the history of the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs, which has been done repeatedly over the years. It is also revisionism to include the 1952 and 1953 championship seasons if one excludes the Indianapolis events should one only consider the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs in terms of the Formule Internationale.

[ensign14]

I've always thought it a bit of a shame they didn't stick a token Formula 1 or sportscar race in the 1952 season, would have made things somewhat more interesting. The irony about making it F2 to get better fields is that of course it made it even more Ferrari-dominated...

[D-Type]

Originally Posted by ensign14

I've always thought it a bit of a shame they didn't stick a token Formula 1 or sportscar race in the 1952 season, would have made things somewhat more interesting. The irony about making it F2 to get better fields is that of course it made it even more Ferrari-dominated...

True, but they did get fuller grids!

As to Formula A & B vs Formula 1 & 2 question, my understanding is that initially both systems were used indiscriminately depending on who was writing (including the CSI itself). It was only when the 500cc formula became an international formula that the CSI used only Formulae 1,2,& 3.

And later a certain Mr Ecclestone registered Formula 1 as a trade mark and rewrote history to suit his business interests.