What the DP should have looked like...

GT1 · 5 Sep 2004, 11:24 (Ref:1087301)

http://www.garra-fans.com/TB_FABCAR/FABCAR_Concept.jpg

From http://www.garra-fans.com/TB_FABCAR/...cs_081104.html

No bentley speed 8 but it would have been better than the three seater they have now...

alfasud · 5 Sep 2004, 13:02 (Ref:1087381)

Pity, the picture looks a bit like a Group C car.... the actual Fabcar DP looks like a Group C car that swallowed a minivan.

tblincoe · 5 Sep 2004, 15:21 (Ref:1087431)

DP's suck... i wish GARRA would just go away and stop giving american sportscar racing a bad name

Chevyguy · 5 Sep 2004, 16:20 (Ref:1087452)

Don't lie, you love the DPs. Otherwise you wouldn't have bothered posting.

Porsche GT1 · 5 Sep 2004, 18:50 (Ref:1087525)

every grand am post turns into an argument or an alms vs grand am war.

**FIRE** · 5 Sep 2004, 19:14 (Ref:1087560)

The concept with lower greenhouse looks better, but still it's...No I don't start this discussion.

JAG · 5 Sep 2004, 21:20 (Ref:1087675)

Quote:

Originally posted by Porsche GT1
every grand am post turns into an argument or an alms vs grand am war.

Peoples minds were made up the first time they saw the cars, and their tech specs.

The sad part is that the specs of the cars are virually frozen for the next 10 odd years.

Porsche GT1 · 5 Sep 2004, 22:10 (Ref:1087702)

oops

billnchristy · 6 Sep 2004, 02:05 (Ref:1087787)

nevermind that within these restrictions they have improved lap times of a second or more at every track this year.

I do agree that the original was quite a bit more attractive, but if youre interested in beauty, watch the fashion channel, not racing...these things are purpose built, and if they happen to look ugly in your eyes so be it...

Bob Riebe · 6 Sep 2004, 02:31 (Ref:1087797)

Quote:

Originally posted by billnchristy
nevermind that within these restrictions they have improved lap times of a second or more at every track this year.

I do agree that the original was quite a bit more attractive, but if youre interested in beauty, watch the fashion channel, not racing...these things are purpose built, and if they happen to look ugly in your eyes so be it...

Ah the statement that shows the ultimate disconnect between Detroit, and the industry that made auto racing a national sport, and the actual auto racing.

Is Roger Smith, Mister Badge Engineering, the secret power behind GARRA?
"It don't matter what they look like, or what they are. Just stick the right decal on it and the public peons will suck it up".
He didn't say that but what he did to GM did, and now it reigns supreme in GARRA.

Reality aside, back in the seventies, quasi run-what-you-brung, type races popped up in the US and to an even greater degree in the UK.
What we need now is someone or thing, with the same, "I'll put up the big prize-money, all you got to do is bring a car, we don't need no stinking rules" attitude to set-up a high six figure pot, and tell the GARRA DP boys " Here is the minimum weight, the rest is up to you" and see what these cars are truly capable of.
They could call it the "Screw the Rules ALMS vs. GARRA Auto Racing Spectacular".
Bob

cybersdorf · 6 Sep 2004, 10:45 (Ref:1087998)

Now, WITHOUT a roof, this would have been a racecar.

cybersdorf · 6 Sep 2004, 18:36 (Ref:1088371)

......so would this, with modifications, be suitable for LMP2? It hasn't been built yet so there shouldn't be a conflict with GA, right? Another market for Fabcar?

**FIRE** · 6 Sep 2004, 18:59 (Ref:1088393)

Quote:

Originally posted by cybersdorf
......so would this, with modifications, be suitable for LMP2? It hasn't been built yet so there shouldn't be a conflict with GA, right? Another market for Fabcar?

GTP2

gttouring · 6 Sep 2004, 22:32 (Ref:1088585)

funny if the FIA/ACO find a class to homologate DP's in to Global rules racing it seems no one has a problem with them...I can certainly see why- if any series gets big and international they get FIA approved so why not the cars participating in it?
They have shown a niche in their unruly bumping and stuck to the tarmac racing...their racing has gotten better as the teams have come up- sadly they are still very amateurish- maybe the teams use this a s a training ground for other series, Ganassi's team going up to NASCAR IRL and whatever...
Perhaps the idea that DP's are a dead end is what seems troublesome- the glory ends here in a smallish series with out worldly following, unlike LeMans and its two outgrowths of LMES,and ALMS. Rcaing a DP and developing it goes only around the GARRA, and all the effort a good team involved won't go elswhere or can't with these cars,
they are getting better, the crawford's sur ehave shown much, and the Dorans and fabcars, well time will tell
GTP2? well i guess (why is it GTP and LMP need LMGTP and a second class within the prototype classes anyway? to ensure a bentley win?)
here's hoping these things will get more populated and more variety will show up - could be real fun...or just a sponsor sapping team thinning and talent sucking series like blackhole.
not to start a fight but i have grown to like DP races.

JAG · 6 Sep 2004, 23:17 (Ref:1088623)

LMP1 and LMP2 allow open and closed cars.

IMO, DP's have about as much relevance to international sportscar racing as Trans-Am. It appears this is exactly what G/A want.

billnchristy · 7 Sep 2004, 01:54 (Ref:1088693)

gt, if you go to a GA race, you will see that it is a very professional series...especially if you could have seen them a year or two ago compared to now...

I dont think they want an international series, but i think you will see an intercontenental americas championship from them soon when/if they go to Mexico.

And, yes, besides a little crash testing (which as witnessed throughout the year they are probably quite capable of) they would easily qualify for LM2, except for the engine size...but the Porsche could run and theyd be overweight at 1000kg or more, but theyve proven they can hang with at least the current crop of LM2s, so the weight probably wouldnt matter too much...and theyre definitely more reliable.

cybersdorf · 7 Sep 2004, 07:11 (Ref:1088784)

Quote:

Originally posted by gttouring
funny if the FIA/ACO find a class to homologate DP's in to Global rules racing it seems no one has a problem with them...

So what you are saying is, a DP with an ACO homologation sticker won't be ugly? - Mhm I'm sure you're right.

cybersdorf · 7 Sep 2004, 07:19 (Ref:1088788)

Quote:

Originally posted by billnchristy
[B]I dont think they want an international series,

Well tough luck, it's what they've got. Perhaps we'll soon see an American breakaway from GA, that'll be fun.

Explain the difference between "international" and "intercontinental" (btw, "intercontinental" involves two or more continents).

Quote:

And, yes, besides a little crash testing (which as witnessed throughout the year they are probably quite capable of)

...except when they should - in a proper crash test (because that's too expensive).

paul-collins · 7 Sep 2004, 14:23 (Ref:1089036)

Quote:

Originally posted by billnchristy
And, yes, besides a little crash testing (which as witnessed throughout the year they are probably quite capable of) they would easily qualify for LM2, except for the engine size...but the Porsche could run and theyd be overweight at 1000kg or more, but theyve proven they can hang with at least the current crop of LM2s, so the weight probably wouldnt matter too much...and theyre definitely more reliable.

I gather by "qualify" you mean in terms of lap times?

This would be true, and particularly if they were allowed larger wings, P2 brakes and tires.

However, from a technical standpoint, the cars don't fit the LMP regs at all. Too high, too much overhang, etc. If the ACO/ALMS were to allow the cars, they'd have to write a whole new ruleset to include them. I would think that with the aero studies available, the FIA and ACO would worry that the cars might be vulnerable due to the overhangs and high roofs. Then again, if the cars are never meant to be on P1 pace, it might not be germaine.

(See Mulsanne Mike's pages to understand why a high roof is vulnerable. For the overhang issue, you need to consider the centre of downforce, and how generating downforce well outside the wheelbase can lead to significant problems if there's a loss, due to either mechanical failure or change in attitude/direction.)

Bob Riebe · 7 Sep 2004, 14:31 (Ref:1089042)

Quote:

Originally posted by paul-collins
I gather by "qualify" you mean in terms of lap times?

However, from a technical standpoint, the cars don't fit the LMP regs at all. Too high, too much overhang, etc. If the ACO/ALMS were to allow the cars, they'd have to write a whole new ruleset to include them. I would think that with the aero studies available, the FIA and ACO would worry that the cars might be vulnerable due to the overhangs and high roofs. Then again, if the cars are never meant to be on P1 pace, it might not be germaine.

The mighty ACO (DadadaDAAAA)--IF you knew Chick Little, like they know Chicken Little, OH, OH, OH what a guy....

JAG · 7 Sep 2004, 18:45 (Ref:1089322)

The DPs may be on the pace of the SR2 based cars, i.e. the Lola B2K/40 and the Pilbeam, but they would be competing against the Courage C65, Lucchini LMP2, Mazda LMP2 in 2005, which are far quicker.

Patrick B · 7 Sep 2004, 19:43 (Ref:1089343)

Really Jag the Mazda LMP2 is quicker? Funny i havn't seen it run yet...

E46 · 7 Sep 2004, 19:52 (Ref:1089349)

isn´t boring this kind of war always in Grand Am/Alms topics?

cybersdorf · 7 Sep 2004, 20:32 (Ref:1089381)

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick B
Really Jag the Mazda LMP2 is quicker? Funny i havn't seen it run yet...

There you go, it's faster than the human eye.

JAG · 7 Sep 2004, 21:32 (Ref:1089445)

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrick B
Really Jag the Mazda LMP2 is quicker? Funny i havn't seen it run yet...

Come on

They are going to build an LMP2. Its hardly going to be significantly slower than an C65 is it

The true LMP2's are nearer to the pace of the MG Lola's than the SR2 based cars.

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