Should there be penalties?

[Knowlesy]

During the wonderful Chinese GP, which was a privilege to watch I must say, there were two rather debatable moves.

We had Coulthard clattering into Ralf Schumacher and ruining his race, and a similar incident between Michael and Klien which ended the Jag mans race.

Now I hate penalties as I feel they discourage racing, but should these incidents be investigated or are they merely an inevitability given the nature of that type of overtaking opportunity?

Certainly both moves were a bit ill advised. I'd rather see drivers having a go than not, but surely they can have a go without clouting each other so hard!

I realise we are dealing with two drivers that are hardly renowned for their overtaking ability, but come on! Surely you can do better than that!

Michael had the following to say:
"I tried to pass Christian when I saw the door was open, but he turned in as I was halfway alongside. It was just a normal racing incident."

You were miles behind Mickey, hardly right alongside! It's no surprise he didn't see you and turned in!

DC:
"On lap 37 I unfortunately had a coming together with Ralf Schumacher at the hairpin and damaged my left front wheel. I'm sorry for him but it also affected my race significantly as I could have finished higher up in the points. It took me quite some time to reach the pits to replace the wheel."

Well it was your fault David!

Thoughts?

[luke]

Well Michael was no were, he just shoot down the inside and took poor Klein out, definately a stop 'n' go penaulty.

[Knowlesy]

Well there are no stop n go's now, if there was to be a penalty it would affect the Japanese GP. I think.

[luke]

There is a rule if you make aviderble contact and you are not alongside then you would great a penaulty, so why didn't MS I was closer to Klein and I'm on the otherside of the world.

[pole2pole]

Originally posted by knowlesy
Well there are no stop n go's now, if there was to be a penalty it would affect the Japanese GP. I think.

I thought MS would have got a drive through for that crash with Klein but nothing happened. I think its one of those grey areas in the rules..On one hand klein left the door opened and MS decided to go for it and in the other hand Klein was the first driver to arrive at the bend and MS went for a gap that was'nt there. A square peg onto a round hole springs to mind. I wonder what would have happened if it where Klein that shot down the inside of MS and took him out of the GP

[Dani Filth]

if i remember corectly they touched at the front wheels level . so it was along side ..

[ralf fan]

i remember seeing that DC and RS's incident was going to be investigated...

MS's wasnt even investigated which is surprising (not suggesting any favouritism or such)

IF MS got a pts penalty which would have been a possibility... Barrichello could still be in the hunt

[GP Racer]

Its funny how the TV showed that the marshal's were investigating the incident between DC and Ralf, but there was no mention of an investigation between Michael and Christian.

Now I'm a big fan of Michael's, but there was no way Michael should have tried such an impossible move on that very tight turn. He simply dove in at the last second, and hoped for the best. No way could Klein react and make room. He owned that turn IMO. Very ugly, really...

[garcon]

The race stewards have a fine line to tread in my view. They have to punish negligent or reckless driving, but they musn't be seen to be stifling competition - if it gets to the point where drivers won't have a go because they fear a penalty then it's gone too far.

Michael had a weekend that I'm sure he'll want to forget. He was waaaay too far back to have a go at Klien, contact was inevitable, but I don't think that really deserves a penalty. Hopefully Michael will find a way to say sorry to Christian (without admitting fault obviously! ).

I don't think the replay of the incident between DC and Ralf showed enough to say whether a penalty is due or not. I'd be tempted to say another racing incident.

[Kicking-back]

These incidents were racing accidents - DC's crash cost him points anyway, which is penalty itself.

We don't want to be discouraging overtaking - and the contact didn't happen at high speed corners.

Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

[billkirbywofb]

My interpetation of the Klien/M.S. contact was that of mutual misunderstanding, and therefore a simple racing incident. I think that Michael, seeing Klien so far off to the left of the track, though that he was going to yeald the corner to him. And went for the pass. Klien I think was thinking that that M.S. was not going to pass on this corner and would wait until the next corner or straightaway. And that if he, Klien, did not turn into the corner soon - he was going to end up in Beijing! Notice how deep Klien was into the corner before he made his sharp turn to the right. I do not thing a person was at falt. But a thing was. The mirrors that are used do not give enough of a lateral view. And I think if Klien had seen M.S. he would have held his long line around the corner. A racing incident, with two drivers expecting the other to do something differant going thru the corner.

[mark_l]

The stewards probably didnt see the MS/Klien collision as they would of had their blinkers on and were too busy tucking into the catering.

[Aysedasi]

Originally posted by billkirbywofb
My interpetation of the Klien/M.S. contact was that of mutual misunderstanding, and therefore a simple racing incident.

I think it was a simple racing incident, but I disagree it was a mutual misunderstanding that caused it. Michael was in his usual "move over I'm coming through mode". That's all fine and dandy when you're lapping the poor sods at the back, but when you're fighting for position you can't expect them to jump out of your way. Michael assumed Klien would. Klien was perfectly entitled to take the corner. Shame it put Klien out.

[Adam43]

TGF/TAF

Michael messed up in that manoever. I think it might be more a mess-up than just arrogance.

Michael's only comment that I can find is given by knowlesy. Klien sees it much like myself:

CK
When I was on lap twelve on the long straight I could see the Ferrari of Michael Schumacher a long way behind me. As I neared corner four I looked again for Michael and I could not see him and consequently then turned in only to make contact with his car.

I don't think there should be a penalty for this, but that is my general feeling on penalties. Some lesser mistakes have gone punished, this didn't even get a "incident involving cars..." warning. Still maybe the FIA are starting to get it right...

DC/RS
http://www.formula1.com/race/news/2274/729.html

Ralf
He tried to overtake me but I think his move was a bit too optimistic.

Autosport are saying DC has apologised! The site is slow at the moment so I'll leave it at that!
In terms of penalties it sounds similar to the MS/CK incident.

[alesi95]

As everybody knows, Penalties are only given if Montoya or Massa are involved.

[Hazard]

What if Montoya & Massa collide?

[Jordi]

They automatically lose 20 places each. Instead of 10, because it's two unstoppable objects meeting...

Now seriously, I think there won't be any penalties, and it should be. Though I found DC's move to be quite daft, it didn't even seem to be trying to overtake there.

[alesi95]

Originally posted by Hazard
What if Montoya & Massa collide?

They the whole fabric of the universe becomes unstable.

[Alpine Star]

Originally posted by garcon
He was waaaay too far back to have a go at Klien, contact was inevitable, but I don't think that really deserves a penalty. Hopefully Michael will find a way to say sorry to Christian (without admitting fault obviously! ).

I don't think the replay of the incident between DC and Ralf showed enough to say whether a penalty is due or not. I'd be tempted to say another racing incident.

Strange, if one touches with his frontwheels the frontwheels of someone else, he was way to far back to do anything, but when someone touches his frontend into the side of someones car between the back and frontwheels its another race incident....

Isn't every incident in a race a race incident?

[Aysedasi]

I didn't see either manoevre (either MS's or DC's) in penalty terms (but then I don't tend to anyway). I saw them as racing incidents. Having said that, in my view, MS and DC respectively wqere obviously to blame. It was only when I heard that cars 4 and 5 were under scrutiny I wondered what had happened to car #1 being under scrutiny - not much between the incidents in my mind..... If DC had the manners to say sorry to Ralf, I hope Michael did the same to Christian.

[PaulSands]

soooooo if you leave your braking ridiculously late and use the car on the outside of the corner to bounce off because your wheels are alongside at the time of contact it's a racing incident??

[Aysedasi]

Putting it that way, perhaps not, but I was actually more interested in both incidents being treated the same. If the organisers wanted to penalise one driver, they should penalise both. A few years ago we wouldn't have even thought of penalties.....

[Gt_R]

Michael move on Klien is quite ambitious IMO...and while i applaud those members who showed consistency in their call for penalty (or without), i can't help feeling amused how some others seem to jump down on Michael over something not to dissimilar to what Montoya have displayed time and time again...something they like to call "racing incident".

IMO, calling for penalty is pretty hard. And i think they should judge it in terms of if is it a "realistic" attempt, and whether when both drivers know it cannot work, whether they took sufficient attempt to avoid it.

A penalty should in incurred in the situation whereby a driver makes a BAD attempt (desperate/over-ambitious), and the driver who initiates the move did not attempt to avoid it but rather just knock into his rival.

DC, MS in China, and JPM in Spa were quite marginal, but they managed to stick within (just) my opinion of what should not be penalised..so i'm pretty cool with the decisions.

[Alpine Star]

Originally posted by PaulSands
soooooo if you leave your braking ridiculously late and use the car on the outside of the corner to bounce off because your wheels are alongside at the time of contact it's a racing incident??

I thought wheelbanging was a part of the sport, but hey, if one pushes his car in the side of another and that is just a part of racing, and one brakes late and comes at the same level as the other car who closes the gap that was allready filled it is called a ridicules move that should be penalized.... Can't realy be called a non-objective opinion.

As Aysedasi sayed: years ago was wheelbanging in the corner something that was a part of racing, if you didn't tryed to overtake you haven't raced. If you touch? So be it, at least you tried... Nowadays you get penalized just for crossing a white line, even if there's no traffic anyware around you.

surely there should be a limit of what is "done" and what is "not done" in Formula one, but if these kinds of actions are penalizable, then we can be sure that overtaking will be a thing of the permanent past, the only safe way to overtake will be by strategy and pitstops, that was just the thing we wanted to get rid off....

[Armco Bender]

A bit of wheel banging is OK,but MS thinks he's driving a panzer tank when it comes to the close contact stuff.
Hopefully Klien went round to the Ferrari garage after the race and felt MS's collar a bit.