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11 Aug 2005, 23:00 (Ref:1380274) | #1 | |
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Wiliiams to use Toyota power in 2007 but not as a customer? How does it work?
OK the strong rumour is that Williams will use toyota engines in 2007 but SFW has said before that they will not be using customer engines. My question is how do these two "facts" gel? In other words can they use toyota engines and NOT be a customer?
And if they do use toyota, we know Toyota is pouring a heap of money into their own team - are williams gonna get the same treatment? |
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11 Aug 2005, 23:07 (Ref:1380277) | #2 | ||
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By not a customer engine Williams probably mean one, some or all of a few things;
That they will have the same specification as Toyota. That they will not be paying for the engines. That they will be involved in the devleopment of the engine. Such arrangements are rare, but not unheard of in motorsport. Obviously there are practical reasons why two teams won't get exactly the same engines all the time, but generally it is possible. We have had Jordan and BAR with Honda engines and a few years before that there were Lotus and Williams with Honda engines also. To differing degrees all can be considered works deals. Will they get the same treatment. Maybe, maybe not. Yes and No. |
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11 Aug 2005, 23:07 (Ref:1380278) | #3 | |
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I don't think they will be getting a full 'works' treatment, more like a 'partnership' deal I think, regular engine upgrades but one or two steps behind the factory team, I guess...
Well, basically what the dude above me said... |
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11 Aug 2005, 23:08 (Ref:1380279) | #4 | |
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This year the toyota engines proved thier reliabilty and abilty to run for more than 2 races..so Toyota is going to give Williams all their used engines from 2005 after they do the 2 cylinder disabling procedure so that Williams will have a competitve engine and since the engines were given to them they do not become a customer.... and it is also interesting that the used 2 cylinder down toyota engies will be more competitive than wthe williams engines of 2005
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11 Aug 2005, 23:08 (Ref:1380280) | #5 | |||
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11 Aug 2005, 23:34 (Ref:1380291) | #6 | |
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Perhaps Williams will be using Toyotas V10 in restricted form in 2007.And who knows,perhaps they'll be sharing engines with Minardi next season.
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12 Aug 2005, 00:03 (Ref:1380305) | #7 | |||
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12 Aug 2005, 00:09 (Ref:1380309) | #8 | |
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ok, so why are people down on the cosworth deal but looking forward to toyota?? sounds to me like they'd be better sticking with cosworth.
i can't believe williams would accept a downspec toyota engine - if they do they've got no hope of being competitive - only level pegging would suffice. So to my way of thinking it's gotta be same spec or the rumoured toyota deal is false. maybe hyundai, or some other new manufacturer - is a real possibility? |
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12 Aug 2005, 00:11 (Ref:1380310) | #9 | |
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that'll be interesting.... Williams switching from BMW to LEXUS... that would do something for toyota's efforts to invade the european market
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12 Aug 2005, 00:34 (Ref:1380317) | #10 | |||
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Are you or anyone else aware of any precedent of a team owned by a manufacturer who would supply FREE engines to a competitor??? I am not. Sauber always had to pay to get older or "same" specs engines. Renault was not running a team when it was supplying both Williams and Benneton with free engines. Honda stopped supplying Jordan as they become more and more commited toward BAR, etc. The reason for that is simple: a manufacturer does not want to run the risk of being outperformed by another team running one of its own engines unless it makes sense moneywise. The manufacturer's reputation would also take a serious blow if that other team was doing so running an older generation engine. This is why one has to pay a fair amount of money if he wants to use the same or older machinery of a team owned by an engine manufacturer. |
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12 Aug 2005, 01:05 (Ref:1380326) | #11 | |||
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A Toyota engine, eventhough not of the latest generation, is more likely to give comfort to sponsors (who know little about the sport) than a Cosworth. Toyota might also be about to ditch its f1 team such that to start with them as client may be a way to be at the the right place at the right moment should they elect to pull out the plug on their owned team while remaining simply involved in engine manufacturing. The reality is that Williams are presently going through very hard times such that they are buying time looking for the best performance/cost deal in the hope that a new manufacturer (could be Hyundai) or buyer (could be Irvine with Hyundai) will soon manifest itself. I would be trying to sell my shares, at discount if need be, if I were SFW or PH. |
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12 Aug 2005, 01:29 (Ref:1380332) | #12 | |
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If Williams 2007 engines are badged Lexus, I have no doubt that the engine deal will be a FULL WORKS DEAL.
Lexus is mounting a concerted push to challenge BMW and Mercedes in Europe (see new IS250) - an F1 team to challenge them is almost all they are lacking. Also, there is no way Toyota would do a deal with Williams that would involve Lexus naming, and then give them lesser engines. Can you imagine a bog standard Toyota constantly whooping the premium brand Lexus??? There is no way Toyota would stand for that. The only way such an arrangement would work is if both teams are competitive with each other. Also, could Frank's decision to switch to Bridgestone be an attempt to win over Toyota heavies in Japan (known to favour a move to the company)? |
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12 Aug 2005, 01:30 (Ref:1380333) | #13 | |||
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Rebadged to Lexus
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Any wins by a Williams Lexus will in no way detract from the Team Toyota whatsoever, but will enhance the image of Lexus. There have been very strong rumours that Williams has been waiting before announcing their engine supplier for next year to see whether Jordan can pay for theirs. Rumours suggest that Jordan is behind in their payments this year. Just some background information here. My neighbours (an elderly couple) has just traded in their Mercedes for a Lexus ES300, and I asked their son which car was better. The answer was the Lexus without doubt, as it was more sporty whereas the Mercedes was more suited to an old couple. The Lexus was also more comfortable, and for a slightly lower price, it even offered as standard equipment some extras which Mercedes would charge a lot for. So I think this is a great opportunity for Williams to upgrade their engine supplier from BMW. And one last thing: it would give the Toyota company a two pronged attack on rivals Honda. |
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12 Aug 2005, 02:07 (Ref:1380343) | #14 | ||
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I would be curious to know if something akin to the the Lexus / Toyota scenario you are suggesting has occurred in the past. To me, it doesn't make sense, on a marketing point of view, to incurr millions of dollars in R&D designing your own f1 car & engine and running your own team while seeing someone else using your engine free of charge winning with a car not designed by you!!! Lexus is not marketing its cars primarily on the basis of their engine but on their luxury & design. I could conceive Toyota's f1 team changing its name for Lexus powered by Toyota engines while lower specs Toyota engine being supplied to Williams for free. I still find this very unlikely though. |
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12 Aug 2005, 02:57 (Ref:1380354) | #15 | ||
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you have to remember though that an engine is not the be-all and end-all of a fast car. you can be sitting in front of a monster running at 35,000 rpm but if your chassis/aero/driver/suspension/cooling/exhaust system/gearbox/component relibility....you get the drift....isnt right then forget it. For 1 company to be represented by 2 brands ( Toyota & Lexus ) makes sound marketing sense to me, and i am fairly comfortable making the statement that Ralf likes to have his car set up different to Mark - two different teams would have two different philosophies about how to make a car quick, so I see it as win-win alround
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12 Aug 2005, 03:30 (Ref:1380360) | #16 | |||
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You really must decide first of all whether it is beneficial for Lexus to gain any benefit for their Luxury cars before going any further with your suggesting that Lexus should be the prime objective of the company's racing policy and reducing the mighty (in sales) Toyota name to crappy second spec racers. |
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12 Aug 2005, 05:23 (Ref:1380378) | #17 | |
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I can't believe the Lexus name will be used.
Toyota will not want its two brands competing against each other in F1. |
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12 Aug 2005, 05:47 (Ref:1380385) | #18 | ||
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What other possibilites other than Lexus and Toyota are there? TRD perhaps?
I can understand them using Lexus to capitalise with Williams formerly associated with BMW, and to lessen the association with the factory team, but with anything theres the question over will they get the same engines at the same time. If Williams are willing to pay enough or cotribute enough, i cant see a reason why that wouldnt happen. |
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12 Aug 2005, 06:47 (Ref:1380399) | #19 | ||||
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Also, rather than giving Toyota two bites at the cherry, it could have four cars with a genuine chance to win races - much better than the usual two. Quote:
If Lexus wants to take on BMW and Mercedes-Benz, it has to convince buyers that the cars are just as, if not more luxurious, stylish and good to drive. Quote:
Also, Toyota will always head up the company's racing operations as this is the volume seller - hell, Lexus does not even currently exist in Japan. I think it makes fantastic sense, but could only work if the two teams were comparable on pace and results. |
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12 Aug 2005, 06:55 (Ref:1380403) | #20 | ||
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Why then would Steven and Marjory Punter buy a Lexus - if the image the racing programme gives is that it's comparable with a (cheaper) Toyota? |
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12 Aug 2005, 07:09 (Ref:1380412) | #21 | ||
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The TRD link is an interesting one, don't forget something similar was done a few years ago with Honda/Mugen...
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12 Aug 2005, 08:55 (Ref:1380494) | #22 | |||
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Thick!!
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12 Aug 2005, 09:16 (Ref:1380504) | #23 | ||||
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12 Aug 2005, 09:59 (Ref:1380536) | #24 | |
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Is there any history of manufacturers supplying teams with their best engines (when they already have their own team in F1) and NOT requiring payment? but SFW said they would not be a customer, which presumably means they will not pay...
So maybe to push the Lexus brand is the only reason they would consider it. |
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12 Aug 2005, 10:15 (Ref:1380544) | #25 | ||
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Just a thought, but did not Renault supply Lotus with works engines in the mid-80s while still running a factory Renault team?
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