Powerslides = dumb

[sonic]

It's a slow news day,

so what are your views on powerslides? Redundant in modern F1 but still apparently a benchmark for rating drivers of the past.

Most people seem to rave about drivers that do it - Alesi was reknowned for this in recent years; how great he was booting it and sliding the back with handfuls of opposite lock on the exit of a turn.

But I find that so bizzare, because not only are powerslides relatively easy to do (compared to, say a 4 wheel drift, or braking late), they are S-L-O-W.

All that wheelspin wasting power that should be delivered to the track. Going sideways instead of forwards. To me it demonstrates a lack of feel, if anything.

[Suze]

Heh hep, slow news day

They are redundant nowadays, but it's like the first time you slide anything - the novelty soon wears off (or so it does in my opinion!). They're not hard to do, they are slow.

I agree, it does waste power, but I know some who do it just because they find it fun....not necessarily a lack of feel.

[Knowlesy]

Some drivers could slide gracefully while maintaining forward momentum....that is the key to the beauty of a good drift or powerslide, and it is wonderful to see. Or rather was, as the cars are too sophisticated nowadays for it to happen.

[Splatz the Cow]

Hmm. I agree with everything you guys said.

I'll add that on ovals there is the situation where you don't want the rear to step out and slide through a turn, but also it can be dangerous to back off, or lessen the steering to try and rein in the rear.

There have been a few who seem to be able to catch a car that slides, and names that stick out are Greg Moore, Paul Tracy, and Alex Zanardi. I realise they are from the same five years of racing but I don't remember seeing other guys do it on the ovals much before that.

There is one guy who stands out as the king of this, and his ability to deal with a slide on a superspeedway by a quick flick while remaining absolutely full throttle through a corner (backed up by the teams data) marks him as the supreme car controller in my book. It was the speed of reaction with a correct input to solve the loss of traction which was so impressive. This is not the case for all top racing drivers, even in F1.

So in this instance, I use "powerslides and drifts" whether intentional or not, as a means of rating a driver.

On the racing circuits of F1 I have seen similar feats in the wet at Monaco and other tracks, by Senna.

But this is done by a few F1 drivers to great ability; Michael Schumacher, JJ Lehto, for example.

However, to return to the earlier example at the ovals of Champcar, it was the incar footage and onscreen data of Juan Pablo Montoya that really told the story; I have never seen anything like it ever, and the fact that it happened twice in (practice or qualifying, sorry can't remember) and a couple of time during the race that I saw, showed that it wasn't luck. Each was a breakaway at the rear, and as all commented should have sent him straight into the wall - but didn't, with merely a few tenths lost on that lap. As astonished as everyone was, Chip Ganassi got him self together, and finished the post race interview about Montoya with, "..He's the man!" Indeed.

That's my thoughts on the subject: drifting/sliding; its not conjusive to a good lap time, but those that can push a car to its limits have to be ready to deal with it when the limits are breached, and some do it better than others.

In my view, Montoya has been defined by this ability.

[bauble]

Do modern day drivers/spectators really know what a 'four-wheel drift' actually is?
It is an overused term and probably has not been seen since the early 1960's in Grands Prix racing.
When the car is pointing off the road with all four wheels in line and is not leaving the black bits then that is a drift. If the front wheels are not in line with the rear wheels then it is a a slide or a skid. A 'powerslide' indicates it is under control and a skid means it isn't. The first use of the technique is attributed to Nuvolari and was the quickest way to take high speed sweeping corners in the days when you only had 'mechanical grip' and no aerodynamic grip. It must be virtually impossible to 'drift' on modern, wide tyres.
Of course I'm no racing driver so someone may prove me wrong but I have not seen a picture of a car drifting for fifty years other than period photos.

A couple of year ago the Motoring News (?) carried a picture of Barry Williams, cornering at the Goodwood Revival Meeting, on it's front page. Barry had his 2.0 litre Connaught sliding, ie, front wheels turned outwards and not 'in-line' with the rear. The caption described it as a drift. Such ignorance from a major periodical!!

[sonic]

Interestign posts guys. I guess I was referring more to the 'back way out of line on the exit of a corner', as opposed to sliding into one.

Still, I like the speedway / dirt oval example. But then, i guess the reason they do it is to set up for the next corner and get the front turned in.

[Suze]

Exactly, it's very different...

[Dutton]

Efficient or otherwise, controlled powerslides/drifts are great to see. If it is just an inadvertent product, as part of an off or accident, well I don't really have any interest in that.

I was watching this thing on Speed the other day, I forget what it was called, but it was a round of a US-based powersliding championship.

I would love to go and watch that live.

Perhaps it makes me some kind of luddite, or something, but I love to see it.

[ASCII Man]

They have a lot of drift competitions in Japan and recently also in the US, they are a lot of fun to watch.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Splatz the Cow

However, to return to the earlier example at the ovals of Champcar, it was the incar footage and onscreen data of Juan Pablo Montoya that really told the story; I have never seen anything like it ever, and the fact that it happened twice in (practice or qualifying, sorry can't remember) and a couple of time during the race that I saw, showed that it wasn't luck. Each was a breakaway at the rear, and as all commented should have sent him straight into the wall - but didn't, with merely a few tenths lost on that lap. As astonished as everyone was, Chip Ganassi got him self together, and finished the post race interview about Montoya with, "..He's the man!" Indeed.


In my view, Montoya has been defined by this ability.

I always remember an interview with Alex Zanardi where he recalled watching Juan Pablo's first ever test in the Ganassi and Alex was blown away by Juan Pablo's ability to intentionally drift the car at 350kph +.

Unfortunately, i've lost the magazine so can't quote exactly what it was he said, if anyone else has that atricle, maybe they could post some of Alex's quotes, and maybe send me a copy of the article too

[Rennen]

All is not lost...AD tells me a modern F1 car does allow them to induce oversteer before the TC chimes in to allow the driver to cancel understeer.

As regards power opposite lock slides Ronnie Peterson was great to watch.
But AD just laughs out loud when he sees them on TV, at the failure of the chassis and tyres to work properly.

'Splatz' you must be too young to remember Jimmy Clark when he wowed the Indy brigade with his car control, he could hang on in there when it got loose, and performed 360's to prevent a visit to the wall and just carried on racing! What I hate about Indy oval racing these days, when a car breaks away it's a goner!

[VIVA GT]

Just two words which the British fans will understand:

GERRY MARSHALL

[Super Hans]

Power slides have no place in modern F1, but they made for spectacular viewing, especially when executed beautifully by a Ronnie Peterson or Gilles Villeneuve.

We can't live in the past, but it's nice to dig out some old footage occasionally, from the days when our heroes had more power than grip.

[Sodemo]

Meh! Powerslides should come back to F1, I have no idea why people have these views.

If you gave the drivers wider rear tyres, say by 4-5 inches, and altered the weight distribution of the cars, you could quite easily get powerslides once more.

[Super Hans]

As I stated previously, I love to see footage of Grand Prix cars kicking their tails out, but I doubt that today's engineers and designers would look favourably on your proposal to make their cars handle less efficiently through corners.

It's like many things in Formula One. For instance, I find it thrilling to watch footage of the top Grand Prix drivers negotiating the Nurburgring Nordshleife circuit, but for a variety of perfectly valid reasons, it's something we will never see again.

Formula One is a very forward-thinking sport and we, as fans, must learn to accept this.

[Dex]

Originally Posted by VIVA GT

Just two words which the British fans will understand:

GERRY MARSHALL

In club racing terms (as arguably the most successful and charismatic club racer of all time) i can't fail to agree - although there will always be an argument about how much of what he did was a *true* four wheels drift, and how much was perfectly controlled slides with opposite lock - he was quite awesome to watch.

(from your username i see we have a love of old Vxs in common - my toy is a droopsnoot!)

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

As I stated previously, I love to see footage of Grand Prix cars kicking their tails out, but I doubt that today's engineers and designers would look favourably on your proposal to make their cars handle less efficiently through corners.

It's like many things in Formula One. For instance, I find it thrilling to watch footage of the top Grand Prix drivers negotiating the Nurburgring Nordshleife circuit, but for a variety of perfectly valid reasons, it's something we will never see again.

Formula One is a very forward-thinking sport and we, as fans, must learn to accept this.

I don't quite understand.

A1 GP cars powerslide to a certain extent, why would it be impossible to make F1 cars do the same?

[Knowlesy]

You could get an F1 car to powerslide no problem.

You couldn't get it to drift, though.

[Matski]

Okay so it's not the quickest way to get round a (tarmac) circuit - but it is fun - oversteer, sliding, drifting, whichever, it's fun... even understeer (sometimes).

I think it requires a certain degree of skill to do it, the faster you're going when you do - the more skill it takes (to pull it off - not to start it!!!)

For the record the fastest, best 4 wheel (in-line) drift I ever acheived was in a front wheel drive car (a peugeot 106 none the less!)

[Super Hans]

Originally Posted by The Monster

A1 GP cars powerslide to a certain extent, why would it be impossible to make F1 cars do the same?

In fairness Monster, I never once stated that it would be impossible to make F1 cars powerslide.

I merely stated that today's designers and engineers would perhaps not be keen on an idea which would reduce the handling efficiency of their cars.

If, however, the FIA enforced rules which caused / encouraged powersliding, then that would be a whole different matter, but personally I prefer Grand Prix technology to move forwards, not backwards and I certainly don't see why F1 would want to poach ideas from the vastly inferior A1 GP.

[zeus_m3]

I think the term "powerslide" means smashing the gas pedal on the exit of a corner and make the tail step sideways. It is only one way to make a controllabe skid (drift) since you can do it with the e-brake, or with the brake pedal, or just turning the wheel abrubtly in some cars.

[zeus_m3]

And I think "powerslide" is the least useful in any form of racing since you want to maximize acceleration at the exit. While in go karting and rallying, brake drifting and pulling the e-brake may help to induce some oversteer at the entry of super tight hairpins so you can have a good car angle sooner.

[Kirk]

It would be interesting if slicks were brought back to F1... then we may see a powerslide or two that is not so inefficient. Then there's TC ... oh, don't get me going.

In the past guys like Gilles Villeneuve could consistently be on the edge and that would include a few recoveries from overcooking her into a partial powerslide. It used to be part of driving on the limit, sadly we see little of it any more, at least in F1.

JV gave us a hint of one last year at Eau Rouge, and it was for many, one of the years highlights.

[Rennen]

Originally Posted by The Monster

I don't quite understand.

A1 GP cars powerslide to a certain extent, why would it be impossible to make F1 cars do the same?

What a strange idea! Why would anyone what to reverse progress? Shall we go back to drum brakes as well while we are at it!

If your interest is in cars that have no grip...you can always go and watch Rally cars on dirt!

[ASCII Man]

What is it with people that immediately start to mention a return to the stone age, when someone suggests something they don't like?