Marshals & Cameras

[Circuitmarshal]

Reading the blue book trying to find in words marshals on duty do not use cameras, is my reading that bad or is it not there?
The reason I ask is some friends of mine are MSA media for a couple of clubs and while on a post on a rally where the furniture kept getting scattered all the marshals wanted to do was take photos and video, when the error of their ways was pointed out, they replied with some rude words and the words PROVE IT!
Having had problems myself in the past, is it written or should clubs be putting it in marshals instructions as a matter of course?
I know this is a rally thing but I put it on here rather than a rally forum so I can get sensible answers.

[DarrellB]

This is one of the basic "do nots" that is stressed at training and should also be emphasised in post briefings. Anything that takes concentration away from the traffic could cause problems during an incident with flying debris etc.

[Sheila M]

The Blue Book does not contain any reference to marshals using cameras whilst on duty.

BARC do state in their final instructions that cameras should not be used whilst on duty and I for one have no problem with this.

It is common sense that if you are on duty and using a camera to photograph incidents then you are not aware of the fuller picture (yes, pun intended) going on around you; you are also not giving 100% attention to your marshalling duties which may put you and your colleagues at risk of injury or worse.

What you see through the viewfinder is not the same as what is actually happening around you.

For the record, I frequently use that latter statement to pit crews and others who take cameras onto pit walls at circuits where it is allowed.

[Nighthawk]

final instructions for most meetings state no camera's.
And yes training days always stress this.
But how many of us take phones on to post and use them for text or as a camera ???? and this i find hard to control....
Mobile phones come under the same rule as camera's
So to be fair we all take camera's on post (Mobile phone)

[Hepatic]

I don't

Phone and (if i take it) camera stay in the back of the car, only coming out at lunch time for a few snaps round the paddock, if i get time. I know of an old F1 vid on youtube that shows you why cameras are dangerous on the bank (favourites aren't functioning atm so i can't link it) - an incident with a few cars, photographer sitting down gets a big surprise and is lucky nothing hits him.

Next time you're on the bank, put your hands either side of your face like a set of blinkers as the cars go past on a green flag lap. Not exactly a sophisticated experiment, but you'll get an idea...

...and if any real photographers are out there and see people trying it, capturing the moment would be a priceless caption competition moment!

[Nighthawk]

I confess my phone is aways in my pocket but i dont use it.

[numbersix]

I think it's one of those unwritten guidelines which the intelligent will take note of and use wisely, while the unintelligent will shout rude words at you and say prove it.

The use of umbrellas while the track is live probably follows the same guideline.

[Doc Hollywood]

I've seen this happen before.

I'd take the stance that I seen at the Aussie GP and Le Mans. Ask the post chief for 10 mins "down time" and let him know you'll be taking a few pictures.

If it's done in a safe and un-obstructing way then I don't see a reason why not.

[sss]

i also have no problems with my marshalls using cameras or phones on post, as long as few sensible guidelines are followed.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

I confess my phone is aways in my pocket but i dont use it.

I confess too...with three children and a wife to worry about, I like to receive a message or call if needs be....I don't think you should let these sort of devices distract you while cars actually racing tho.

[Piglet]

Re Phones, I think BARC finals now say something along the lines of "don't be distracted by them" rather than "thou shalt not use" - I don't have any to hand to prove that though.

In Spa you see marshals in the middle of the track during a formation lap or on the grid taking pictures - it looks shocking. Apart from the lack of senses problem, you're there to carry out a professional role - not take pictures.

[Circuitmarshal]

I guess in answer to myself it all comes down to the lack of discipline in rally marshalling.
After trying to act in a professional way for a good many years in rally Marshalling, it was nice when I finally got into circuit marshalling and found what I thought marshalling should be like.
100% discipline in rally marshals, we can but hope!!

[Sticker Rub]

Although I've only been circuit marshalling less than a year & marshalled one rally, I found myself marshalling with a complete rookie at Rallye Sunseeker this year. When I asked her if she'd had a safety briefing she said that she hadn't so I gave her the best of my limited knowledge. I forgot to mention phones & cameras & had to point out that neither were safe during a stage when she started to chat to her boyfriend & take snaps of the cars sliding past her a few feet away.

Marshalling the Friday night stages with disciplined BARC marshals was in stark contrast to the laid back approach on Saturday.

[Nick Kirby]

There is a reference to cameras on the MSF dvd in the Motorsport marshalling section, when they suggest you won't get the spectators respect, escpecially when you want the to move back to a safer place, if the marshal is using a camera. Which I agree with as I can hear the specie's answer, "he's using one!". I havn't been through the whole dvd as yet to see if there is any other references to this subject. I also can't find any referance to "no Mobiles or cameras" even in the MSF pocket books.

[whatapalaver]

I thought photographers use cameras - marshals don't.

nuff said?

[James Elder]

My general understanding is that marshals don't use cameras - at least that is in our instructions - and anyway, usage of them during sessions would just be distracting and wouldn't help our general safety.

Mobile phones is a more difficult one though - surely they can be distracting too? But they have a wider use - especially if you happen to be on call for example or expect calls from family or guests. So my suggestion there is that phones are used carefully - don't let them use up your concentration. As for me, I usually take my phone on post, but it isn't switched on - after 5 days in the office taking calls, a bit of peace is welcome!

[JovialJooles]

Originally Posted by Circuitmarshal

Reading the blue book trying to find in words marshals on duty do not use cameras, is my reading that bad or is it not there?

It probably doesn't say 'Blind people should not be allowed to marshal on post', or 'marshals are prohibited from wearing flippers on post'. I think perhaps with some things, it's just an unwritten understanding that the obvious does not need to be stated.

What a shame that they have been proved wrong...

[Robin_D]

Oh lollocks. I'll put my flippers back in the shed.

How can you be fully aware if you are looking at life through a lens? Ach!

[Seoigh]

Last year, we had a Marshal advertise Daytona 24-Hour test day photos FOR SALE ON EBAY, bragging about the 'special access' granted him by dint of his position, SCCA membership, and access credential.

Needless to say, the Promoter's legal staff were not amused. The phtog had the crust to initially refuse to withdraw the sale and be obstinate, but was finally forced to relent. He lost permanent access to the facility, and caused a real black eye for our club. Result is that all workers must sign a statement at pro races that they will take no photographs for commerce; we even discourage cameras on station now...a shame, really.

[Denosaur]

Originally Posted by Seoigh

Last year, we had a Marshal advertise Daytona 24-Hour test day photos FOR SALE ON EBAY, bragging about the 'special access' granted him by dint of his position, SCCA membership, and access credential.

Needless to say, the Promoter's legal staff were not amused. The phtog had the crust to initially refuse to withdraw the sale and be obstinate, but was finally forced to relent. He lost permanent access to the facility, and caused a real black eye for our club. Result is that all workers must sign a statement at pro races that they will take no photographs for commerce; we even discourage cameras on station now...a shame, really.

That is a real shame, that one person can destroy the whole thing for everyone.

Here in Australia we have a similar problem, but more the fact that some of the marshalls use there position to take the photo's and then try to obtain employment or even media accreditation afterwards. An extremely dirty way of getting somewhere.

A little of the topic, they might be forcing marshalls to sign discliamers and so on, but there's nothing to stop the punters over the fence taking and selling photo's. Saw at least 5 guys at the last round of the Supercar here last year with big lenses going nuts.

[Bodysnatcher]

As already said, some clubs quite clearly state no mobile phones or cameras whilst on duty...

Sensible rule, just requires a sensible person to apply it.

I would interpret this as akin to the smoking thing - ie it's alright to use a phone or camera when there is no requirement to be marshalling.

but... where do we draw the line at distractions..

IMHO, scanners in the ear ...tolerable in a flaggy, IO & obs probably, not for incident though.

Radios - listening to the football/cricket/GP/Radio Le Mans - nope don't really agree with that, even though I sometimes do the last one.

but here's Bodysnatcher's point for debate....
Use the technology.
I've heard some advocate using a camera after an incident, at the clear up.
I want to use one before, during and after incidents.

As an observer, I'd like to put my own camera on a minitripod at the start of a race and video a fixed point.

When I've had a biggie, if a snapper has been there, looking at a couple of pictures can really clarify what happened. A video would give me my own personal record of what's happened. On a couple of occasions I've been contradicted by what the circuit's CCTV record shows - and that does not feel good.

Like BTCC last weekend - on a couple of occasions it would have been good to review the "evidence" rather than work from memory - always tricky with a 3 way squeeze being put on a car.

[Hepatic]

Thats an interesting one. A fixed camera is totally different to one that someone is "using" and i can't see an issue with it as long as it wasn't in anyone's way / means of escape etc. Although not a nice subject, should the unthinkable happen and a fatality occurs on post it could be invaluable. I know some of the Dutch use dictaphones to help record incidents - it would be a more sophisticated version of that. Places like Silverstone might not need it, but smaller circuits could help loads in certain circumstances.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Bodysnatcher

IMHO, scanners in the ear ...tolerable in a flaggy, IO & obs probably, not for incident though.

Scanners are very useful for incident marshals. Very often they are working some distance from the observer, so apart from hand signals there's no means of communication. When dealing with a big incident, the knowledge that the race has been red flagged or the safety car sent out is useful, information such as the course car not coming out because of a quick turn-round (& therefore little or no time for rotation & track checks) all makes the job that little bit easier. The occasion when I realised just how valuable a scanner is was when I was some distance from the box, having signalled for medical attention to a driver; hearing the unit being scrambled, I was able to tell the driver that the medics were on their way, rather than just that I had asked for the medics - much more reassuring for both driver & marshal (although, even without that knowledge I'd probably have told him they were on their way).

All other things being equal, I try to organise my incident team so that one of each pair has a scanner.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Hepatic

I know some of the Dutch use dictaphones to help record incidents

I know at least one English observer who does.

[archaic gold]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I know at least one English observer who does.

Something I have thought of having. Nothing worse than having a Serious Incident and the Clerk when he arrives asking for a Serious Incident Report. What time did the Incident occur, (one probably has that); but Rescue Uint, Ambulance, Doctors arrive?? This gets lost in the other actions an Observer has to attend to, normally back to the action in a Tin Box making a telephone call!