Cost of putting on a Race meeting?

[Old Ropey]

Well Silver Clerk, as an example of what I term incompetence, I have personal experience of the BRSCC not knowing the date of one of its meetimgs in 2003 which cost us 2 unrefundable air fares from Scotland. This was less than three weeks before the meeting.
On the issue of circuit costs, yes they are too high for us mere competitors, but Jonathan Palmer made a point some time ago which was quoted here, that at Cadwell Park (incidentally by far the best circuit in the country) if each of 8 races had the maximum entry of 22 (I think) the cost per driver for circuit hire would be £36.
We have had 4 full grid races at Cadwell in recent years in Formula Jedi, nee F Honda, for which the entry last year was £275 for 2 races.
The problem, as I see it as a competitor in a successful formula, is that our full grids subsidise small grids.
It cannot be right that we pay the same entry fee as a race with, say 6 or 7 entries, of which I have seen many over the last 3 years. This of course is not a matter for the circuits, but the organising clubs, who to my mind should calculate the entry fee on the basis of a full grid for each race and then the fee proportionally for those that do not get a full entry.
Sure this would kill off many formula/classes but this is just what many have been advocating for years.
The end result would be fewer meetings, probably, but with big grids. Would fewer meetings result in increased circuit charges, probably!!
Nevertheless, it is frustrating to know that one is subsidising other races with only a handful of cars on the track.

[Ian Sowman]

Old Ropey, if your suggestion had been in operation a few years ago Formula Jedi probably wouldn't exist today. Formula 600 would have been one of those series with small grids that was killed off and amalgamated into (say) Monoposto.

[Woolley]

This is why I've always thought new series should run with an existing one until there's sufficient interest to justify it's own grids. Formula Libre and mixed saloon series are a great way of doing this, insted of just being receivers of old formulae.

[Old Ropey]

Mr Sowman
I'm sure you're right, I suppose most classes have their ups and downs over the years, if they last that long.
Just depends which is where when a discussion starts.

[Slippy Diff]

Blame the MSA I reckon. Put a halt on all new race series unless they can guarantee a grid of 20 plus. Scrap all series that can only regularly put single figure grids out. Less meetings per year would then mean better supported meetings. Run them over 2 days, say 16 races, and charge less for the entry fees. 16 races average of 24 in each = 384 entries, multiply by 100 quid gives you 38,400 for starters. If somewhere like Oulton is 16k for a saturday, an extra day can't be twice as much, can it?? Or is my reasoning too simple?
What is the point of running meetings where there are 6 races and about 100 people taking part when the circuit hire is in the region of 16k ??!! And people used to wonder why I went abroad to race 4 or 5 times a year instead of doing 12 or 15 races in the UK. They were great meetings, well supported, lots of practice, half hour races or more and you were made to feel welcome by the organisers, small gifts for the drivers, free barbies etc. They made you feel welcome and not just there to allow officials to feel good by exerting some authority for a day.

[ActiveMS]

Looking at it from the track owners point of view, they are under pressure.

Local residents (many of whom have lived by the tracks for years) are putting more pressure on the council to reduce noise and traffic. Thus many tracks now only have a number of days per year they can go above certain limits. Some tracks like Croft can only race on Sundays after certain times (quite late in the day for an 8 race meeting) hence have to reduce the number of races that can be run, thus increasing individuals race costs.

Also, Council tax is a HUGE amount. Brands was reported (by autosport a while ago) to be paying over 400,000 pounds per year!!!! You would have thought that the amount of visitors it is bringing to Kent would result in a reduction of tax. Frankly how the council can justify this amount is way beyond me and to be honest would my first port of call in trying to reduce costs at somewhere like Brands.

Add the above to the fact that many circuits can make more money out of corporate and trackday events with alot less hassle and mess, you can see why weekend race costs are so high.

As someone rightly pointed out above, add the circuit fee's to all the additional costs of putting on a meeting (insurance, permits, medics etc etc etc) and to be quite honest Im suprised the likes of the BRSCC and BARC make any money whatsoever and perhaps over the next few years one of the bigger uk clubs may well go under.

We are lucky the marshalls work for free, otherwise it would cost us all LOADS more.

Going back to what Old Ropey and Ian were talking about above.
If I was in a series/championship with a reduced number of competitors, I would be quite happy to merge with another if it meant more cars on track (hence more fun) and if the clubs did charge proportionately it would mean better race costs.

So perhaps ratio'd entry costs would be a good idea. How it would be done administratively is completely different ball (or should I say wheel) game and Im not sure if it could be done.

[HiRich]

From the Association of British Motor Clubs, issued two years ago. 'average cost' (their words) was around £25,000, comprising:
Circuit Hire: 53% (£13,250)
Insurance: 9.2% (£2,300)
Timekeepers: 8.5% (£2,125)
Admin & Accounts: 8.1% (£1,275)
Awards: 3.2% (£800)
MSA Fees: 1.7% (£425)
Doctors: 1.2% (£300)
which leaves 15.1% (£4,525) as 'other'

Obviously circuit hire fees vary dramatically (and have risen significantly from these figures), and certain clubs are, shall we say, more cost concious than others.

If you assume clubs want a meeting to be self-funding, this average event would require 140 entrants @£180 (7 grids of 20), or 125 entrants @£200 to break even.

[flagwaver]

As I have said on other threads perhaps if more drivers attended AGM or even joined club committees they would have a real idea of how much a meeting costs to run. Also they might get a better understanding of the ammount of work that goes on unpaid to put on a race meeting.

[Rod Birley]

At some venues the doctors/paramedics fees are now over £1000.

[Stephen Green]

And there is the added cost of clubs supplying/hiring Rescue Units.

[Simon S]

Originally Posted by ActiveMS

Also, Council tax is a HUGE amount. Brands was reported (by autosport a while ago) to be paying over 400,000 pounds per year!!!!

is this correct?

How the hell do they justify this?

if you work on say 40 weeks a year,(where the cct is used) that's £10K per week to make up, assuming that the weekday coporate stuff acount for half of this, that leave the racing related stuff to make £5K a week from testdays and race weekends...

as has been pointed out, considering a big meeting will normally fill up local hotels/bars etc. and thus bring money to the area, how does a council justify this level of chage?

[Stephen Green]

Simon, you should bear in mind that for car racing only meetings like the Grand Prix and BTCC draw what you could call huge crowds. Obviously for bikes there is the MotoGP, BSB and WSB. If you add that together a circuit gets about 4 'large' meetings a year and so local hotels etc don't do that well out of it. I heard the figure for business rates at BH was closer to £700,000

[Simon S]

point taken,

however, have you ever tried to get a hotel room near Croft/Pembery/etc lately?

I don't even bother trying at Brands/Silverstone/etc.

[Peter Harding]

Problem with some of the possible solutions is that we don't know the numbers who are turning up until the closing date a few weeks before the race. If numbers are low, it's too late to organise some other series to come. Merging with another race will make it more interesting and get us home earlier but makes no extra money.
I agree that series that don't have enough cars entered at the beginning if the year should be merged if possible but we do need to encourage new groups who may, eventually prop some others.

e.g Radicals, Locost, RGB.. - lets hope Bikesports follow

[ActiveMS]

Originally Posted by Peter Harding

Problem with some of the possible solutions is that we don't know the numbers who are turning up until the closing date a few weeks before the race. If numbers are low, it's too late to organise some other series to come. Merging with another race will make it more interesting and get us home earlier but makes no extra money.
I agree that series that don't have enough cars entered at the beginning if the year should be merged if possible but we do need to encourage new groups who may, eventually prop some others.

e.g Radicals, Locost, RGB.. - lets hope Bikesports follow

Agree with Peter and others.

Merge series at beginning of new racing year if previous years grid sizes were too small (rather than wait and see how many register), unless of the course the series will gaurantee numbers and pay upfront.

Registered numbers does not always relate to grid sizes, so clubs should work from knwon quantities and be realistic.

They can always split them later on in the season or run try and run additional grids if the numbers consistently grow. If for some races there is a waiting list of a few, so be it.

I think setting the ground rules at the beginning of the year is the best way and would avoid some of the admin headaches.

[SpawnyWhippet]

This has probably been mentioned 100 times before, but why don't the organisers add a few £ to the entry fee and advertise race meetings on local radio / paper in the fortnight before a meeting. They could negotiate to keep the gate receipt, or reduce the track hire if they guarantee a minimum gate. This would be much better for all concerned; self funding for the organiser, drivers have reduced overall costs and get a crowd, sponsors get visibility, track makes more money and local population around the circuit get entertainment. There must be 1000's of people who would pay a few £ to spend a weekend day at a race circuit rather than the garden centre with the Mrs if only they knew a race meeting was on. (I am a driver and most of the time I have no idea when there are races on at my local circuits!)
I also started racing because I heard radio ads for a BARC F. Renault meeting at Thruxton...

[Andrew Hornsey]

Although on a different level, I know from experience that just to run a "corporate" kart circuit things are seriously expensive. Just to meet overheads, we had to take about £4k per day. Then, when you add the direct costs, the cost immedaitely starts to rise.

Circuit owners often get a bad press, but the costs involved to them are huge. To ensure that these venues remain open to us, we have to expect costs to be high to use them.

Brands must suffer the worst, because it is the circuit in one of the more affluent areas of the country, so their costs will always be that much higher.

With regards to getting the gate up (and I think I feel another thread coming on here) we need to get radical to change peoples views on this - and it is down to ALL of us - circuits, clubs, officials, and clubs to raise the game here.

[HiRich]

Originally Posted by Andydickens

...but why don't the organisers add a few £ to the entry fee and advertise race meetings on local radio / paper in the fortnight before a meeting.

My experience is that there is a deeply ingrained attitude from both circuit owners and organising clubs that it is/isn't their responsibility. The circuits cannot see why they should sacrifice part of their income (ignoring the fact that 80% of a big pie may be better than 100% of a small tart). Clubs cannot see the benefits against risk (additional income stream, greater source of potential new competitors)

There is a fundamental problem that the marketing needs to be a consistent, rolling programme, whilst the Clubs only attend a circuit infrequently. If the HSCC put £10k into promoting a regular meeting at Brands Hatch, half the people who would respond would come to events over the next four weeks (because they couldn't make it on the day, but it inspired them to check out alternatives). Not much use when the HSCC are at Combe of Croft. If all the events in the meantime were also promoted properly, the HSCC would gain their full return when they come back to Brands four months later.

There is a solution to this. I presented it to a number of parties, addressing a lot of potential problems. I thought the numbers made excellent sense, and it deserved at least some detailed investigation. The response was, shall we say "somewhat less then enthusiastic"