btcc in the olden days?

[kristof14]

what was the btcc like before super tourers??? what was the class called i.e. super tourers, super production?????? do people think it was better before or after the introduction of the super tourers???
i'm only young so i dont know most of this but i reallllllly wanna find out!

[touringlegend]

I'm only young too(15), but I believe there were four classes - John Cleland won in 89' in a lower class Astra. I think making the championship one class and easier to understand was the organisers reason behind changing it.

[Bennett Fan]

I came into following the BTCC just as the multiclass era ended. There were 4 classes until 1990 when there were only 2. Class A for the Sierra Cosworths and Class B was for the new 2 litre category later known as Super Touring. It was just class A, B, C, D etc. No fancy names.

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by touringlegend
I'm only young too(15), but I believe there were four classes - John Cleland won in 89' in a lower class Astra. I think making the championship one class and easier to understand was the organisers reason behind changing it.

I think the question was about the olden days, so let's forget modern racing like 1989?

In the sixties it was in classes, with the Mustangs and Camaros and even Galaxies contending against Cortinas and the like. The pointscore was geared to give emphasis to the class placing, so a driver could win the title in a smaller car without winning a race outright.

[racer69]

In the 60s wasn't it basically production racing with things like Galaxies, Mustang's and Cortina's, while in the 70s wasn't it for the Group Two and Group One regulation's, with cars like Capri's and Camaro's. In the 80s it changed to Group A, were we had things like the Sierra Cosworth RS500, BMW M3, Mitsubishi Starion, Heaps of Corrolla's, Cleland's Astra and even a Holden Commodore. All of these years were class racing until 1991 when it became solely super touring, and the points system was such that more often than not a class C or D car would win the series.

In 1990, was class A solely for Ford Sierra Cosworth RS500's and for all Group A cars, while class B was for Super Tourers

[KA]

I'm not an expert, and too young to remember the 60's, but you're about right- Gp 2 dates back to the 60's, and did allow a certain amount of modification- it also for a while allowed the Porsche 911 to qualify as a Touring Car.... More liberal Group 5 rules were used for a short time at the end of the 60's as well

The 1970's Group 2 rules I think were only used in the ETCC- Britain didn't use them on cost grounds, as they allowed substantial modification and were expensive (Ford & BMW spent a lot of money in the ETC at that time- not least because also hired current GP drivers to drive the cars at times...)- I think Britain used Group 1 (1970's equivalent of Super Production) for a time, and then a sort of half-way house between Gps 1/2

The FIA brought in the new Group A regs in 1982, and the UK adopted them a year later (this is the period I first saw Touring Cars)- they lasted here until the 2-litre regs started in 1990/90. There were 3 (sometimes 4) classes, basically 2501cc+, 1601-2500cc and up to 1600. (a 1300 class was introduced briefly, and I think the 2500 class was increased to 3000 towards the end) There was a 3.6 litre maximum for a long time (to keep out American V8's, but still let Rover play...)- this finally went in 1987- allowing in the Holden Commodore.
The championship was frequently won from the smaller classes- Cleland (1989), Chris Hodgetts (1986/7) and Win Percy all managed this

The Group A period was good- although controversial at times (the rules were open to some interesting interpretations and cheating- allegedly- was rife...)- Rover/MG pulled out in mid-84 because they got sick of this (and sick of getting caught bending the rules...),and the BTCC went through some rough times (anyone who thinks it's in crisis at present should have been there in 1984/5/6...)
Good days though- they were the first races I ever went to and I enjoyed them a lot

[Sodemo2]

I just loved the sound of a 98-99-2000 super touring Honda - BRUMMM!

[Bennett Fan]

I think the question was about the olden days, so let's forget modern racing like 1989?

Ah, but the thread starter asked

what was the btcc like before super tourers???

[SL]

KA, I think you have most right.

The 60's were dominated by the big Yank cars, Jags, Lotus Cortina's, Mini's and Ford Anglia's. What the Yanks had in power the other's had in cornering. The best of breed was the Jag's, power and handling combined. A lot was driver skill, how J Clark, G Hill held onto the tail of and nibbled at the heels of Gwainne Baillie's Galaxie had to be seen. As the points were 'combined' often the Championship went to the lower classes who won more outright class wins. These were often support races to the F1's and several drivers competing in both events. The Porsche's were I think allowed but with limited success.

The 70's from recall started slow, but ended with massive Camaro's dominating despite the efforts of BL Triumphs, several Silverstone TT's are remembered with a host of Camaro's rumbling around with a Dollie sprint howling in agony trying to out power the V8's along the straights. The best remembered was the titanic battle between a Ford Capri's and BMW in the early 70's. BBC have a great video of the TT race that year somewhere !!

Going onto the 80's you seem to have most covered as they wanted to outlaw the US cars. But by that time most US cars were strangled by emmission laws corporate 'brand' greed and power take off's that took a lean and wild Mustang or Vette into a fat and lazy street cred looking, fat arse hauling donkey.

You must remember during these years international travel during the 60's and early 70's was costly and not as easy as it is nowday's. A trip to France took a few weeks planning at least. No internet, no CNN or salelite TV. News might take a week to get back to the UK, a live report telephoned though from a crackaly phone and taken down in shorthand !!! There was no EEC, no free bouder's and computers took up a whole floor of office space.

To get an Internationaly agreed Formula took a lot of time and often open to local interperation back then .

Simon

[Ray Bell]

Substantial modifications were allowed in the sixties. Some of them went beyond what we had in Australia, though other areas were more liberal here.

But nothing like today. The fact is, today's cars aren't modified tourers, they are racing cars with touring car bodies, little regard whatever to their origins, just make it work on the circuit.

Which defeats the purpose of the racing as it was seen in the beginning, it becomes another Formula One, unlimited and expensive.

Those tanks did handle fairly well for their time, though. And Dan Gurney saw everyone off at Silverstone in a Chev Impala once. Anglias got nothing once the Lotus Cortinas hit their straps, they being the only small cars to consistently challenge the Yank stuff.

[SL]

Ray,

You are right, once the yank tanks sorted the handling there was little the Cortina's could do on fast circuits. But at Brands, Aintree or Crystal Palace and maybe other bendy circuits the 3 or 2 wheeling UK Fords could win.

Also as you mentioned they were road cars adapted for racing by local garages rather than full blown international racing machines.

Simon

[TimD]

Funnily enough, I was just reading an edition of Hot Car from late 1972, where someone was grumbling about the state of motor racing. He complained that the only difference between a touring Ford Escort RS1600 and a Formula Ford by that stage was the number of seats....

I wonder, if we are talking about modified tin-tops in racing, whether the Superloons qualify as touring cars of some kind.

Now that was lunatic racing. Light silhouette bodyshapes, such as VW Beetles, Hillman Imps, even a Reliant Kitten, spread over Formula 2 and Sports Prototype chassis. Lovely stuff. Whatever became of Bill Cox's 7-litre Ford Capri, or Mick Hill's DFVW - a Beetle with a Cosworth Formula 1 engine in the back.

[KA]

Sadly before my time, apart from some of the cars that have been seen in various club saloon/GT caegories in recent year- there were some truly wild creations built though- the other series I remember fondly was Thundersaloons in the 80's/90's which allowed much wilder machinery than Formula Saloons do now-

What I do miss about the old multi-class BTCC is the sheer variety of cars- thinking back to when I first got interested in touring cars in the early/mid-80's you had everything from big V8 Rovers, BMW 635's, Mitsubishi Starions, through Alfa GTV6's, MG Metro turbos (don't laugh- these were works cars in the same 2.5 litre class as the Alfas, and in the hands of Patrick Watts, Robin Brundle- and on occasion his brother Martin!- Tony Pond etc, were very fast and could beat the bigger-engined Alfa's..) to Toyota Corollas- to say nothing of the ETCC which included such delights as the Jag XJS and the original 'flying brick', the Volvo 240 turbo...

[rocketman]

Has anyone knowledge of history or existence of the BMW 1600 GT(formerly Glas) in any competition, on any continent?

[aland]

them were the days in the late 80's guts like Andy Rouse, Robb Gravett, John Cleland. Guys that were real racers who could take a bit of panel beating. The noise of the wastegates chattering on the cossie's and the good commentating of guys like Charlie Cox and Murray Walker.

still with s2000 being adopted in full in 2007 the good days will come back as all the WTCC cars will be a few years old then and we will see BMW's, Fords, Alfas etc on the grid. IMO the BTCC will never see the amount of works teams that we once had but a good private field and as long as we have a few good "characters" like Plato and Neal we might still have a good series

[nickyf1]

Originally Posted by touringlegend

I'm only young too(15)

im young too, i found out about super tourers through murray walkers vidios

[touringlegend]

Guys, this is a 4 year old thread! And I'm 5 year's older! I suggest if you want to ask info on any cars you start a new topic rocketman. Thanks.