Turbo CVH Engines

[Flat Out Farr]

This is a call for help.
The one in my Fiesta ran like a heap(see my web site; www.flatoutfarr.co.uk)
I think it is a bitza engine. Is anyone out there in the Fast Ford series or hillclimb world running one?
I need guidance on what it should have in it.
I am after a reliable 200BHP, so I can beat Watkins in the DT&RC series !
Any sensible suggestions/people to talk to, in fact anyone with an Escort or Fiesta??!!? Help!!

[Al Weyman]

I said it on your other post Flat out, speak to HT if they are still in business as they were the CVH maestros. .

[RTH]

The factory Fiesta Turbo was circa 1990

Pace Products made an after market low pressure turbocharger bolt on kit , for the standard 1.6 CVH , which gave the car a lot more low down power

People like Brodie Brittain offered modification to electronic control units and allied systems giving extra boost on a variety of systems

[Al Weyman]

Is'nt the transmission also always going to be the Achilles heel on the car, I would have thought once you get over 175bhp that box will be on the limit without some serios investment. I am not a lover of turbos myself as they always seem to be having some problem or other, go like the clappers yes but at a price.

[Flat Out Farr]

the gearbox is not an issue. I have a full Quaife box in the car! It has an Emerald MS3D fully mappable ECU system. Those that have already seen the engine bay will see that it has a one off injection system that is more effective than the original Ford one in the RST Fiesta.

It seems, certainly from the mags, that most people running a Turbo CVH are the Max Power brigade, and I have to admit that I suspect I may get my leg lifted if I go to talk to any of those people.

I know Arron @ HT is the God of CVH's. Vulcan appear to be experienced in them as well. I am just looking for someone that will tell me how it is about turbo CVH's and give me the right advice, when using them for competition.
I cannot believe that no one else is running a Turbo CVH in racing or speed events?!!?

[Notso Swift]

I understand exactly where you are coming from Flat Out, I have a car that is rallied a bit, is fairly popular with the “cruze” scene, but no one seams to race one.

The fundamentals for all turbo motors are the same and indeed the fundamentals of ALL motors are the same, get as much gas (air) in and out as you can! Boost is just your little helper to get more air flow, but the more boost you have the more heat you will have. More flow with less boost is the real goal! (best example is an indy car, they run a ridiculously low boost, like 2 psi, and still have 800 hp from 2.6 (?) Litres)

If you are looking for idea’s I would refer you to the books by the Bell’s
Corky Bell or A Graham Bell, they are no relation to each other and I think that the one by A Graham Bell, which is published by Hynes, is probably the best as it is real world and an easy style of writing.
Looking at the spec of your car I would say that it is pretty much in the right ball park, however, I will make a few suggestions:

Most important thing is you have an ECU for fuel and Spark, which is sorted, the fact that it is a middle of the road one is fine, the Emerald will do your job fine. I have run Motec and Autronic in the past and despite them being world standard the club racer will not see all that much benefit. I now run one that is similar to the Emerald.

You have a good intercooler, vital, make sure you have ducting around it so that all cooling air can actually go through the core.

Modern trend is to up the static CR and lower the boost and find a balance, this will assist off boost performance

Avoid detonation at all cost, so when you have it tuned make sure the guy is genuinely good, and be conservative with that last couple of degrees of advance.

I presume you don’t have to run a restrictor, lucky bugger, so even though your engine is only 2 valve your power goals are readily achievable. I have about 190 hp at the wheels and my car is internally standard 4 valve 1600 cc with a 36 mm restrictor, without the restrictor power should be up around 250

No restrictor means you will be able to use more revs, too keep the turbo spinning, which also means you can afford to run a little more cam. But not too much, you may find a NA cam fits your needs as most Turbo cams are really mild from the manufactures. If you are getting a cam made you don’t want too much overlap, 110 or 112 deg lobe centres will be fine, and focus on getting the gas out of the cylinder, boost will help get it in there and you want to try and spin the turbo. Likewise with head work, you want the gas to be able to get in so nice and smooth is good, but getting it out (with high velocity) is critical.

Buy one of the books! It will pay for itself. You can then use the info with the NA knowledge for CVH to get the best results.

[graham bahr]

Originally Posted by Flat Out Farr

This is a call for help.
The one in my Fiesta ran like a heap(see my web site; www.flatoutfarr.co.uk)
I think it is a bitza engine. Is anyone out there in the Fast Ford series or hillclimb world running one?
I need guidance on what it should have in it.
I am after a reliable 200BHP, so I can beat Watkins in the DT&RC series !
Any sensible suggestions/people to talk to, in fact anyone with an Escort or Fiesta??!!? Help!!

that power fig should be a piece of ***, given full engine managment which if done right will give you a very driveable car, with a decent turbo and intercooler, although from the little i saw of your car chris you should be considering a bigger thicker intercooler, low intake temps are key to good power and keeping the motor in one piece

i dont wish to burst you bubble but i think your going to need over 200 to beat Mr watkins, because turbos cars are by way of nature heavier than atmo cars, and the power is not as accessable, they tend to be not quite enough or too much, and the cars suspension has to be set up more in favour of putting the power down rather than ultimate cornering, with 350bhp 350lbft in a 950kg car i couldn't beat the fiestas on the smaller tracks the longer circuits yes but i like you want to beat them everywhere, i can now but i'm using 460bhp 410lbftto do it.

if you want to talk engines i'm happy to do so, infact i'll even build you one if you want.

[Flat Out Farr]

I accept your opinion Graham and realise what you say is right. You haven't earned the nickname of "Guru" for nothing! I will give you a ring.
Thanks to NoSo Swift for your advice as well

[Al Weyman]

Blimey with Graham on the case I will have to look out in my mirrors for you FlatOut! :-)

[Flat Out Farr]

I'll be worrying too much about having a senior moment, to catch you up! eg. forgetting that the start is a rolling one!!

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by graham bahr

turbos cars are by way of nature heavier than atmo cars, and the power is not as accessable, they tend to be not quite enough or too much, and the cars suspension has to be set up more in favour of putting the power down rather than ultimate cornering, with 350bhp 350lbft in a 950kg car i couldn't beat the fiestas on the smaller tracks the longer circuits yes but i like you want to beat them everywhere, i can now but i'm using 460bhp 410lbftto do it.

Yes Turbo's are a little heavier, but not that much, I could go on a diet and lose the 15 - 20 kg we are talking about, the bad thing is that it is all on the front of a FWD

With Power, in the old days they use too reckon that you needed 30% more power than the equivalent NA car to get the lap time with a turbo, however, if you build it smart, using more modern techniques I think this is more like half that now.
Key concerns are - don't oversize the turbo, on a 1600cc racer it is pretty hard not to, and it is always tempting to get a little more power, getting an extra 30 hp may slow your lap time down. Keep it small and keep it spinning. When a 2 litre Production car like the STi or Evo pumps out 320 bhp, and can push 400 with not much more than chipping, you can be assured that it is too big a turbo for your 1600cc. With a bigger turbo if you make a mistake you will pay for it 10 fold against a smaller unit

High static compression ratio (compared to the old days), so if you do fall off boost you have a car that can at least drive back into the power, as opposed to seeing 10 cars go past as you set your watch by a sundial. My car is currently 8.3:1CR, lots of people said I was crazy, can't run enough boost to make serious power, maybe, but it laps better, even if it is not as good on the drag from the start line. I have just bought some 9.0:1CR pistons because I was so so wrong

Gearing is critical, don't let it fall into the no boost zone Drive considering the point you are going to in the power band, not just where the power trails off. My car is at full boost by 3800 rpm, power stays flat (because of the restrictor) until 5000 rpm, before the boost tails off, by 6000 there is only 7psi, down from 16psi. All my gear changing is focused on not dropping in to the no boost zone.

And I agree with Graham a low charge temperature is very important, especially as it avoids detonation. Just be mindful that the longer the pipe work the laggier, and be careful of the total pressure drop (unless it is accompanied by a corresponding temperature drop) A water spray costs virtually nothing to install, and for race cars (unlike road cars) puting water in the tank is just like remembering air in the tyres

Big Tip
Don't build a Turbo motor looking for Power, build it for its torque band, the power will come anyway.
Good luck

[graham bahr]

front running FWD DTRC cars are sub 700kgs probably closer to 650kg, so turbos, heavier exhaust manifolds extra pipework, plenum chambers, intercoolers, more cooling capacity, bigger fuel tanks with more fuel will add a fair weight penalty.

as has basically been said, the trick with turbos or any setup actually is to build a well matched package which must include correct gearing