Drivers and Marshals (split from Yellow Flag thread)

[Draven]

I was reading and following this thread when it was under "Yellow Flags".

I can bit my lip no longer.

Glad this has been separated from the Yellow flag discussion.
To be honest I'm saddend by alot on this side of the thread, we are all on the same team, in it for motorsport.
Marshals ,Drivers , Observers, circuit owners, CoC's, scrutineers, the spectators.

All the same team, becaue the sport is not run for any one of them in particular.
It's not a sport centered just on the drivers and everyone else is just helping out, anymore than it's purley a show put on for the spectators to watch.
It there for the enjoyment for all envolved.

As this is now a Drivers and Marshals thread I'll talk about them for now.

Maximum respect should be given to marshals (and I"m not seeing that being given here), no one is disputing that a driver can give an opinion to a marshal on any action taken. But that is it, give your opinion respectfully and in an approprate way and then let them do thier job.

Drivers/car owners are always running a risk of damaging the equipment, and of course will want to minimise the risk. Thankfully there are a great big team of people there that want the same thing, they are called marshals.
They are looking after the public, the driver the drivers car and other competitors with what they do.

Marshals, Observers, Medics all want the same thing from what I can tell, good safe exciting racing.

Drivers and Teams seem to all want, good safe exciting racing. (and to win)
So as you can see the goals are similar to say the least.

To end the rant I'll say that I think Drivers should have to do some marshalling experience and It would be great if once a year the marshals got a race to take part in themselves. These 2 steps would seem like a good way to educate both sides.

IMO of course

[EvilPumpkin]

He's such a nice boy. He also brings chocolate

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by Draven

Drivers/car owners are always running a risk of damaging the equipment, and of course will want to minimise the risk. Thankfully there are a great big team of people there that want the same thing, they are called marshals.

Frankly the only person responsible for damaging the car is the driver. He put it on the track (in harm's way) so what's the argument? I've been maliciously taken out of races and had a word with the perpetrator aferwards.

Fact is if you were daft enough to stop in a stupid location then live with it. Hopefully the other drivers will take note of your beached, stranded, disabled car and avoid it. Don't forget if they hit you they get damage too.

[Locost47]

Originally Posted by EvilPumpkin

If someone said to you "if you don't <insert action here> I'm holding you personally responsible for any damage to <insert object here>" what would you think they meant?

To me that's a threat. Just because it doesn't involve anyone getting thumped doesn't make it less of a threat. I certainly can't afford to have a disgruntled driver hitting me with solicitors letters etc.

I am fully prepared to take responsibility for whatever I have control over - but if I make a request that's denied by the CoC and someone's car gets damaged, I'll be damned if I'm going to wind up getting sued for it.

Equally, I'm not going to go trackside to an incident if I feel my personal safety is at risk. Should I be liable for legal action then?

Sorry, i wasn't making myself clear. I was trying to be fairly brief because i often get in trouble for rambling.

I agree entirely about the "threat" bit. All the marshall can do it pass on the request to race control and has no authority to stop anything therefore they can have no responsibility for the consequences of doing or not doing so.

Where the responsibility bit comes in is in whether the post stays in contact with race control about the situation - whether it gets worse, better, stays the same etc.

If there is no further communication from that post to race control (presumably *very* unlikely but kind of what Alf was hinting at) then i can understand a driver requesting that an update on the situation be sent. If they refused to pass on update information then the (already highly excitable and not completely rational) driver would be justified in pressing the matter to some extent.

I *do not* mean by this that the driver would be right to demand any kind of race outcome, just that they could ask for a local situation update to be sent to race control. If that was done and the response that came back was not to the driver's liking then tough, they'll have to deal with it.

The whole issue of legal liability makes me sad. I've seen first hand that it's common practice now for Doctors to hide their profession when taking plane journeys because there have been situations where someone has fallen ill, the Doctor has tried to help them and they've been sued for things that have gone wrong despite their best intentions.

Threatening to sue people who can help you out in an emergency is a very dangerous business. Motorsport is dependent on the unwritten agreement that marshalls are there to take care of drivers when things go wrong. As long as marshalling is voluntary we can be sure that they are there with only the very best of intentions (otherwise they'd be off doing something else on those nasty wet, windy weekends) and so are not going to be complacent about their duties. IMHO that means that legal liability shouldn't even be an issue.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Locost47

If there is no further communication from that post to race control (presumably *very* unlikely but kind of what Alf was hinting at) then i can understand a driver requesting that an update on the situation be sent. If they refused to pass on update information then the (already highly excitable and not completely rational) driver would be justified in pressing the matter to some extent.

No, not unlikely. It's quite possible that a second message wasn't sent - as to why, there could be many reasons - including a mistake by the marshal(s) involved. That's not under dispute. Neither is the fact that drivers can get excitable and that we should and do make allowances for this.

What I would say is that there are always two sides to every story and making a judgement on if a decision/action was right or wrong is not something anyone in this thread can do if not all information is presented. And since you'd need every person involved in the thread to present their information, it's impossible to make a call on whether a mistake was made or if there were other factors. That works for pretty much every incident you see. You'll often see arguments in the marshals forum about this as well. The wisest thing I ever heard said on the subject (even if it was said by Dave Brand ) is "the easiest incident to deal with is someone else's"!

The only thing under dispute (from my perspective) is whether it is ever acceptable to use threats against a marshal because they're not doing what you want - which I think you answered in the rest of your post!

[carsten.meurer]

ok, seems i am surely lacking vocabulary to express what i want to say !

if i feel to have a valid point, that a marshall is doing something wrong,
might it be not making the case clear enough to coc, or taking action to
remove a car in a way that will cause a lot more damage to it than the
incident itself, i express this to him !

and i will tell him that i hold him ( not the private person, but the acting
member as a official function of the organizer ) responsible for all damage
caused.
you would not believe the stupid actions i have seen sometimes...


in my view, the 'sport' has been divided to some extend !

drivers want to race, and obviously pay for it.

clubs ( mostly ) no longer do it volunterely, but have paid staff !
i ask myself why that is, when bigger grids in pre email ages were
covered by a small team working for free !
so the persons in those positions attract a lot of anger ! esp. as many
of them not really do anything to help the customers !

the circuit owners want ever more money to hire the track out !
as a example, what does the foulstone centre for me as a competitor ?
still i pay part of it with every cheque i write out !

then you have the marshalls, who are stupid enough ( read enthusiastic ! )
to work for free and run most of the show !
on the other hand, most other officials get paid ( and not to little in
germany ! ) to be coc, scruts, whatever !
why pay for your own transponder, when you still pay for the complete
time keeping ? it has not come down in price since you have transponder
and computer programs that do a lot of work without manpower !


in my personal view, drivers ( not comercial teams !!! ) and marshalls are the
sheep and dogs, used to make money by the sheppard that organizes the
races !
thank god its not the same for all ! and i found you can feel a completely
different atmosphere from sign on to price giving on the few events
organzized by enthusiasts, run by enthusiasts, that have enthusiasts
racing ! and all that for less money than usual...

edit:

and while on ranting...

in the old days, you paied your msa a licens fee.
that did hold a insurance ( still does ), and funds were used to organize safety cars and equipement,
partly sponsored by the industrie, that were given out for free to the organizing clubs !
today you have to pay large amounts to rent those vehicles, while licenz fees have still grown !

also the asn was actually organizing championships !
for these services a licens fee is valid and worthwhile !
but what good does any asn incl, fia to club sport racers today ?
at least in germany they sabotage every try to invent a classic formula libre race scene, plus make
it impossible to run on non permanent tracks ! just so that the permanent ones can continue to
ask a fortune without competition !

it has come a long way since it was sensible, and a all for one aim approach !

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

in my personal view, drivers ( not comercial teams !!! ) and marshalls are the
sheep and dogs, used to make money by the sheppard that organizes the
races !

thank god its not the same for all ! and i found you can feel a completely
different atmosphere from sign on to price giving on the few events
organzized by enthusiasts, run by enthusiasts, that have enthusiasts
racing ! and all that for less money than usual...

carsten. Your English is perhaps rambling but we can forgive you for that. Have you heard my Russian f'rinstance!

Yoiu make a good point about the financial impact on our collective attitude to racing. Likewise the enthusiast versus the business aspect is interesting.

I don't profess to know whether the UK clubs donate to the Marshal's fund but I do know that when I race with Top Hat in the UK I'm given the chance to add a sum of money (whatever I can afford) to my entry fee as a donation to the Marshal's fund. Top Hat is run by a businessman and journalist, but his organisation has got the balance right for those like me who can't really be @rsed with going throught the angst of championship racing.

So like you I'm an enthusiast and, like our marshaling collegues, I'm there for the fun.

So when "iffy" calls are made by officials it worries me, but we have to remember that no matter how much we spent to be on track we are mostly amateurs so it's our risk. Spin at Druids, Paddock or anywhere else then it's either a problem with the car or ambition has outstretched ability.

Either way it ain't nobody's fault but my own.

[Tim Falce]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

ok, seems i am surely lacking vocabulary to express what i want to say !

Your vocabulay is very good, better than a few native English speakers on here.

in my view, the 'sport' has been divided to some extend !

drivers want to race, and obviously pay for it.

clubs ( mostly ) no longer do it volunterely, but have paid staff !
i ask myself why that is, when bigger grids in pre email ages were
covered by a small team working for free !
so the persons in those positions attract a lot of anger ! esp. as many
of them not really do anything to help the customers !

the circuit owners want ever more money to hire the track out !
as a example, what does the foulstone centre for me as a competitor ?
still i pay part of it with every cheque i write out !

Times change, I would expect organising race meetings week in week out is very time consuming and with more and more rules, regs and safety issues to be taken into consideration there isn't time to do this in the organisers spare time, and would you work for nothing?

Circuit owners have businesses to run as well, business taxes have gone up and still have to be paid. All other costs are rising as well and the end user (US) will foot the bill. If you take the four MSV circuits, I would think millions have been invested in improvements over the last 2 years and this has to be recouped, MSV is a business not a charity.

then you have the marshals, who are stupid enough ( read enthusiastic ! )
to work for free and run most of the show !
on the other hand, most other officials get paid ( and not to little in
germany ! ) to be coc, scruts, whatever !

You are treading on thin ice here, who is the stupid one, a marshal who gets to do the hobby he/she loves for free or the drivers who get to pay a fortune to do the hobby he/she loves.

why pay for your own transponder, when you still pay for the complete
time keeping ? it has not come down in price since you have transponder
and computer programs that do a lot of work without manpower !

That's a valid point and has been discussed many times on here.

in my personal view, drivers ( not comercial teams !!! ) and marshalls are the
sheep and dogs, used to make money by the sheppard that organizes the
races !

You can always do what I do if I am unhappy about the cost of a race....stay at home.

How much would you pay in Germany for a 15 to 20 minute club race plus qualifying?

[carsten.meurer]

first, i would never call anyone but myself to be stupid to do what they
enjoy and love for free, even at own cost !
it just looks stupid put into perspective to the commercial side having taken
over !


entry fee for a club meeting in germany...

none !

it does no longer exist a club meeting in germany that i could take a formula
ford, FVL or whatever out to !
what we have is series for everthing with a roof !
i am preparing a youngtimer rs2000, and entry fees for those are cheap !
2 30 min sessions and a 1hour race for about 300 quid.

some TC formula libre cchip might be less tracktime, and entry fee about
300 to 400 quid.

next weekend i go to poland to race my FVL at poznan ! nice track !
free session 30 min for 15 quid.
2 30 min qualy sessions, a 10 min warmup and a race for about 180 quid !

that makes it a worthwhile trip !

then 2 weeks later i am off to formula libre in phoenix park !

so you see: i DO stay away from races i do not feel good value !

good value races: chimay is running this weekend !!!

sadly i did not go this year after notice of closing the track !
we did single seaters as a demonstration last year, and it seems thats what
they do with everything this year !

[Tim Falce]

Carsten, I would think Poland would be cheaper as there is no one to pay any wages to there, they all seem to be working in England now

[alf]

A threat is not necessarily a threat of violence and you are trying your best to use the full weight of the word to cloud the issue.
you are saying that I should appologise after the fact because i should let the marshal get on with his job, well I will, and have done but there is no way I will sit back and watch someone do something wrong, in silence.

my " threat" as you are so keen to keep calling it was
AFTER,
repeat for the "nth" time,
AFTER
nothing had been done for 2 laps with cars still coming round paddock semi-sideways. if you think this doesn't warant a call or at least a second call well I and I am sure many other drivers are now more worried.
In desperation I politly asked for a red flag and when NOTHING was said, and NOTHING was done and my anxiety inevitibly increased to a point were I was left no alternative, but to inform the guy of my oppinion. that is neither violent or ill mannered and stop eluding to me in such a way.

you said very pithily in another post that if my car was so precious I should'nt race it
hilarious
do you expect me to now take your line about not being able to afford being threatened with solicitors letters etc seriously?

if you are worried as you say and as is demonstrated repeatedly on here your judgment is in question, perhaps you shouldn't bother either. (works both ways you see) you can't dish it out if you are not prepared to take it back, fair is fair

There is only one person on this thread who is creating a them -v-us situation, everyone else seems to be basicly supportive ( quite rightly so ) of the marshalls and the job they do, you however seem intent on pointing out everyone elses frailties.

thanks to those others for your words of support.
this realy is my last post on this ( rather tired) subject.

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry you have left.

But for anyone else.

Were these cars going through Paddock "almost sideways", doing so under yellows? If so then surely they were overdoing it?

[carsten.meurer]

there you got part of the problem peter !

some of the cars are constantly sideways, and i am still able to change direction or slow down rapidly if needed...

not a single truth is what you will find here !
every single observer might have a different opinion about the incident, and all
are true !

[Eddy V]

A shame this has become a "them and us" thing.
There is no reason for that at all, but sometimes people will react in a wrong way, adrenalin I reckon. Or a short fuse. No need for that.
It is only meant to be fun.

In brief my view as a (former) driver: if you / we choose to go / are made to go / or get punted off, well that is our (yours as a driver) problem.
Nobody forced me to race. Okay, I didn't like it either when my car was left in a dangerous spot. But who is to blame if your car stays out there? The marshal? Don't think so. Vent your anger at Racecontrol.

As a (former) coc: if you as driver go off for whatever reason, I'll do anything within my power to help. But sometimes, before you are able to overlook the situation properly, practice or race may be almost over.
You put it there, so you bare the responsibility. Don't you sign a certain paper?
And I wonder what your reaction would be if your race at the end of the day was cancelled because we had to pull the reds every 25 seconds?
Don't get me wrong, safety comes first, but sometimes we sods deal with more than one incident at the same time.

As an observer: car goes off, driver gets out with or without the help of the marshals, call it in, write report, calm driver if needed and hope for the best decision of Racecontrol.

I' ll go and hide now just to be safe. And this is my personal view.

[carsten.meurer]

as far as i am concerned, its not them and us at all !

we sit in the same boat ! i feel it race control and organizing club that
causes some rant between the two parties, as the common interest gets
towards a customer client service.


what i will never ever do is rely on the sense of racecontrol !

as you have found, i am a difficult customer if i pay my entry fee !
for that sum, i would expect at least a race control that knows the
rulebook ! shame is they mostly do not !

even the coc uses wrong flags pretty often !

once in dijon, a race cut short due to shedule being late, ended with a red
flag after 70% distance ! just the bugger did not count in that one lap will be
taken off ! and that lap had a different leader, plus not full points !
a simple red and chequered would have done the job !

same happened at many qualy sessions.

but do not get a wrong impression !
i am good as gold if i see that the people do it for passion, and it reflects in
the way the event is run and financed ! then i am happy to live with the odd
decision...

we are all just humans after all !

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by alf

... nothing had been done for 2 laps with cars still coming round paddock semi-sideways. if you think this doesn't warant a call or at least a second call well I and I am sure many other drivers are now more worried.
In desperation I politly asked for a red flag and when NOTHING was said, and NOTHING was done ...

I'm going to have to make assumptions here in the absence of evidence, but based on what I know would normally happen.

The observer will have called race control to advise them of the spin and stranding. That's standard. If the car is considered to be in a dangerous place, that will also have been communicated, and I'll take a wild guess now that the obs has asked for a race stop. Since that hasn't happened, I'm also going to assume that he's been told he's not having one.

OK, so that done, why is he going to make a second call because the driver is getting nervous about the position and potential damage to his car? He's been told he's not getting a stop. 'Because the driver wants one' is not going to change the decision. The obs quite possibly agrees with the driver, but that still isn't going to change the decision. So all that's happening is a telephonist in race control may be tied up discussing something that everyone knows isn't going to happen preventing a more important call from getting through.

I have been in a situation where a driver told me he was going to hold me responsible for any damage to his car (I'm not even an observer) and I'm afraid it got very short shrift. "I didn't put it there, I'm not in a position to move it and I'm not in a position to do anything about the racing going on around it, so I'm personally responsible only for attempting to help and your fellow racers if you do something I'm able to assist with, and since you haven't, please go and sit over there so that we can't irritate each other any more."

[Locost47]

Originally Posted by Woolley

OK, so that done, why is he going to make a second call because the driver is getting nervous about the position and potential damage to his car? He's been told he's not getting a stop. 'Because the driver wants one' is not going to change the decision. The obs quite possibly agrees with the driver, but that still isn't going to change the decision.

Someone earlier said that a variety of things affect a CoC's decision of whether to stop a session or not and that one of those was whether the drivers on track were behaving themselves through known danger areas. I would have thought it reasonable for the offical at that post to report their assessment of that driver behaviour on subsequent laps. If everyone is doing what they should do then sure, it may not be necessary at all, but if it looked like people weren't obeying the flags (as Alf has suggested and which is the origin of the original thread) then they should make a second or repeat call to race control to give them that information. If they still decide to continue because of the many other factors involved then so be it, but at least the decision has been made with up-to-date information.

BTW, your point about damage/responsibility is well taken, i'm just talking about passing on of safety information.

[archaic gold]

We are upto post 67, and not really resolved the situation! In the early days of FPA, I was at Clearways (Brands Hatch) when a car parked itself parallel to the tyre wall. I advised RaceControl that the car was in a vulnerable position and left it to them to make a decision on a follow-up action. The driver came over to me and said I must ask for a "Stop", as he was liable for any damage if any other car hit it. My immediate response was "I did not ask you to park there in the first place!"; and then advised him to visit Race Control at the end of the session if he had a problem with this!
Recently, I had a car parked on the grass at the exit of a fast corner at Brands that had broken down on the Pace Car lap for a rolling Start. I refused to accept from RC that there was nothing they could do as the grid had already left. The result was that those cars completed three laps of the GP Circuit at Brands to give time for a Land Rover snatch vehicle to tow the car away to a place of safety; then the Race was started. It is purely a matter of communication with Race Control and how a request is made. I am reluctant to add, but a decision is often made on personal respect of the Observer on Post by the Clerk in Race Contral!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Ian Sowman

I would say that any driver who has been involved in an incident during a race is likely to be a bit emotional.

I know if I had an accident of some kind I might be bit shocked, get a bit sweary, shout at people, behave irrationally, not be the sweet person that I normally am.

That might upset the people that are around me at the time.

I can see how that would translate to the race circuit. But, at a race circuit the people who will come into immediate contact with a driver - the marshals - will 'expect' and in many cases be trained for such an eventuality. One of the many skills required to be a marshal is people management, therefore. You'll need the ability to let a certain amount of verbal attack wash over you. It might include a demand to stop a race. In the heat of the moment, I don't see why it would need an automatic report.

Just my view, and to some extent it accords with that of EP.

Alf for President What a fascinating fred this one is...as for the above statements about emotional drivers....most people on the bank are taught to ascertain the drivers condition and report in....it is understood that the driver may be irrational, dazed, disoroented or otherwise indisposed.

The driver should NOT interfer with the running of the point...I have had to explain this to several. Your precious car may be right in front of you, seemingly in a dangerous postion, but someone may be in even deeper doo doo elsewhere around the track and that takes priority.

As for waiting and observing under yellows, well there are many reasons why this is done...the main one is that we are at a race meeting where people in cars and one the bank want to race If the race can continue after tippy toing past an incident this is (Shirley ) preferable to stopping the race in nine cases out of ten ???

[275 GTB-4]

Originally Posted by Bob Pearson

I, am often a bit grumpy when I have thrown it off, but I try to restrict it to sullen silence. The only thing that has ever wound me up is the marshal trying to march me away while holding my arm. That's never going to go down well with anyone unless he/she is into being a submissive in some SM scene.

Bob....you have to understand that the person taking you by the arm and urging you to move to a particular location has probably just recieved an earful from someone on the bank or race control. Its got nothing to do with S&M...although if you are interested....maybe we could continue this discussion in private ).

Competant Officials learn to have concern for squishy and non-squishy bits

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by alf

A threat is not necessarily a threat of violence and you are trying your best to use the full weight of the word to cloud the issue.
you are saying that I should appologise after the fact because i should let the marshal get on with his job, well I will, and have done but there is no way I will sit back and watch someone do something wrong, in silence.

Which brings us back to interpretation. The bottom line here is that you belive you are right, which means anyone who doesn't agree with you is wrong.

Originally Posted by alf

my " threat" as you are so keen to keep calling it was
AFTER,
repeat for the "nth" time,
AFTER
nothing had been done for 2 laps with cars still coming round paddock semi-sideways. if you think this doesn't warant a call or at least a second call well I and I am sure many other drivers are now more worried.
In desperation I politly asked for a red flag and when NOTHING was said, and NOTHING was done and my anxiety inevitibly increased to a point were I was left no alternative, but to inform the guy of my oppinion. that is neither violent or ill mannered and stop eluding to me in such a way.

More evidence that you are not reading anything I'm saying. I have never in any way, shape or form accused you of being violent. I have not even implied it. I stand by my opinion that making threats against people is ill mannered. That is an opinion of behaviour that I am fully entitled to and I'm not going to withdraw it just because you don't like it. You believe your actions were justified. I don't believe they were. They are opposite positions. I'm not going to change my opinion, nor do I have to do so.

Originally Posted by alf

you said very pithily in another post that if my car was so precious I should'nt race it
hilarious
do you expect me to now take your line about not being able to afford being threatened with solicitors letters etc seriously?

I said nothing of the sort. Go back and read the post again. It's right there for everyone to see.

As for not being able to afford solicitors to defend myself against litiginous drivers, I don't really care what your opinion is of my finances.

Originally Posted by alf

if you are worried as you say and as is demonstrated repeatedly on here your judgment is in question, perhaps you shouldn't bother either. (works both ways you see) you can't dish it out if you are not prepared to take it back, fair is fair

Trust me Alf. If there is any possibility that I might be marshalling an event that you are driving at, I'll cancel. If you'd like to PM me a list of your dates for the rest of the year, I can guarantee it.

As for dishing out, I have NO clue what you're talking about. You keep going on as though you're being attacked, you keep putting words into my mouth that not only did I not say, I didn't even imply - the posts are RIGHT here for everyone to read.

Originally Posted by alf

There is only one person on this thread who is creating a them -v-us situation, everyone else seems to be basicly supportive ( quite rightly so ) of the marshalls and the job they do, you however seem intent on pointing out everyone elses frailties.

What? I'm sorry, at this point in time I have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you're going on about.

What I suggest is that you go back and read my posts again. Properly this time instead of scanning over them and picking out the words that support your belief that you're somehow being attacked.