Is racing against the clock as challenging as racing against other competitors?

[driftwood]

Can 1 classify a sprinter hillclimber as a race driver?
Next we will be including the drag racers like Sylvia Hauser!
I accept Michele Mouton, Louise Aitkin-Walker & Pat Moss from rallying as a "race driver"

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

can 1 classify a sprinter hillclimber as a race driver
next we will be including the drag racers like sylvia hauser
i accept Michele Mouton Louise Aitkin -Walker Pat Moss from rallying as a "race driver"

One most certainly can class a SPEED EVENT driver as a "race driver" especially as you already "accept" drivers from "rallying" as a "race driver".

AFTER ALL RALLYING DRIVERS TACKLE VENUES ONE AT A TIME AND ARE BATTLING THE CLOCK JUST LIKE SPEED EVENT DRIVERS!

[driftwood]

i knew that argument would come back as your line of defence
next u will be saying darts is an athletic sport!

[rescue dude]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i knew that argument would come back as your line of defence
next u will be saying darts is an athletic sport!

I remember a circuit driver of some renown competing at Shelsley Walsh hill climb
a few years ago saying before his run;

" This isn't real racing it's a piece of **** this is. "

He took three wheels off a very expensive Tyrell F1 car.

Anyway back to the thread.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

i knew that argument would come back as your line of defence
next u will be saying darts is an athletic sport!

Only a moron would think darts was athletic!

And while we are on the subject, there appear to be a few DRAG RACING DRIVERS mentioned, surely they cannot be racing drivers as their sport is also against the clock?

[driftwood]

Steve, drag racers, sprinters, hillclimbers, may race against the clock but they are not RACING each other; HUGE difference
A race driver will race the clock for grid position but when the flag drops they are racing 20-30 other guys, sometimes in a sprint 10-20 lapper, sometimes 2 hr 1000 km enduro.

The most common reason I hear from sprint hillclimbers as to why they do not go circuit racing is they dont like the idea of all those other cars around them.

I will admit that a person who has done 1-2 season sof sprinting hillclimbing will make a very good race driver for laps 1 and 2 running on cold tyres but dont forget the race tyre is a far harder compound than the sprint tyre plus the brake pads are softer compound all designed to work form the very first moment of use. Race cars need the 1 lap warm up to create heat into the brake discs and pads and some heat into the tyres but even then it is still way below the desired temps needed to be 100% effective; so a race driver has to be thinking of getting the best from the warm up lap and then make a good start and not fall off at the 1st or 2nd corner due to cold tyres and brakes. All this and trying to overtake or defend their race position and still put in the fastest lap each lap to make up ground on the car in front or break away from the car behind. I'm afraid I cannot accept sprint hillclimbers as race drivers.

I remember the old race rally driver events of the 1980`s when we had the GP drivers V top flight rallymen in some stage and track events. Often the rally men won overall. However, if the track event was also in, say an F3 car, I'm sure the tables would be turned on the rally men. The road going saloon cars levelled the track race

More than happy to put, say top 3 sprinters/ hillclimbers/ race drivers/rally drivers of 2006 c/ships into an event of each discipline in the same road car (it's the ony way to have parity) and lets see who comes out on top. I'm sure it will be close run between the race and rally men at the top of the results sheet.

If you dont think the road car is a fair vehicle to use for each discipline, then lets say
1 2 litre single seater sprint hillclimb car is used for each driver
1 2 litre rally car for each stage run,
then use a 1 make saloon car and a 1 make Formula car for the 2 track races.

If these cars were used the race men would definately be top of the results followed by the rally men;
when the event is finished they can all go to the pub for a pint and game of darts!

[John Turner]

I think that we may not see drifty for a couple of days after that because he'll need a long lie down!

I wonder if this is a new thread breaking out here. Shall I split it out and call it 'Is racing against the clock as challenging as racing against a competitor?' or something else?

[John Turner]

I've created a new thread for this discussion. I'm leaving it in 'History' as it was started here and involves some of our 'regulars'. I have a view on this issue but will have to post a bit later as off out now (I'm sure you all wanted to know that! )

[Al Weyman]

Personally I look at hill climbing as being a bit of a more dangerous sport than circuit racing, I have no facts to prove it but many of those Havoc videos seem to feature the sport, I think along with Rallying and for the same reason i.e. lots of hard objects to hit it should definitely be included for no other reason than you need balls to do it. Not so convinced about sprinting and slalom though although I will say I have never seen it so not really qualified to comment.

What about the short circuit and indeed NASCAR roundy round boys, should they figure in this?

[Steve Wilkinson]

There are a lot of very talented drivers who have been involved in Hillclimbing and sprinting who either progressed to Circuit Racing or did both side by side. Some examples are:

Stirling Moss
Peter Collins
Tony Marsh
Bob Gerard
George Abecassis
Ken Wharton
Ron Flockhart
Les Leston
Ivor Bueb
Mac Daghorn
Peter Westbury
Martin Bolsover
John Clelland
David Franklin
Peter Lawson
Brian Nelson
Andy Priaulx
Ted Williams

to name but a few.

One must not forget that there were Sprints and Hillclimbs in the UK before there was circuit racing. The speed event format is one of the purist forms of the sport with optimum lines and the ticking of the clock the factors that make the sport so infuriating! Exponents are always striving for the perfect run and rarely achieving their objective.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

Personally I look at hill climbing as being a bit of a more dangerous sport than circuit racing, I have no facts to prove it but many of those Havoc videos seem to feature the sport, I think along with Rallying and for the same reason i.e. lots of hard objects to hit it should definitely be included for no other reason than you need balls to do it. Not so convinced about sprinting and slalom though although I will say I have never seen it so not really qualified to comment.

Generally speaking the Countryside is a tad closer in hillclimbing and rallying than in sprinting or slalom (Autosolo?).

Accidents at Hillclimbs and Sprints are few and far betwen but can be very destructive. However the one BIG advantage Speed Events have over Circuit Racing is that you will NEVER be knocked off the course by some rich kid who can't drive! If you do have a shunt then it is either a mechanical failure or driver error that is to blame.

Finally Al the CAMARO would be totally unsuited to Hillclimbing BUT would be a cracking car for sprints!

[MGDavid]

I'm always amused by these philosophical discussions; first define 'racing' or 'race driver' ! Crcuit racers race each other, rally drivers and speed eventers race the clock, end of story. They are all Motor Sport - and to the great unwashed who don't know enough to differentiate, they are all 'racing'. Notice how the TV progs and news bulletins always call rallies 'the race'.
And why does it matter anyway? Is it something elitist or holier-than-thou that certain circuit jockeys like to say that other forms of the sport are not racing or are lesser in some way, to enhance their own standing?

[Al Weyman]

I may even have ago in one next year Steve for the Craic, I have been tempted before.

[Anuauto]

Originally Posted by MGDavid

I'm always amused by these philosophical discussions; first define 'racing' or 'race driver' ! Crcuit racers race each other, rally drivers and speed eventers race the clock, end of story. They are all Motor Sport - and to the great unwashed who don't know enough to differentiate, they are all 'racing'. Notice how the TV progs and news bulletins always call rallies 'the race'.
And why does it matter anyway? Is it something elitist or holier-than-thou that certain circuit jockeys like to say that other forms of the sport are not racing or are lesser in some way, to enhance their own standing?

Agree. Also everyone I've ever discussed it with has the same view. At amateur level shunts/body damaged caused by others and beyond your control is always the reason for not wanting to do circuit racing.
The individual inextricably linked with making contact in UK racing acceptable is now chairing the "civil service". Just the sort of thing to convince competitors the problem will be addressed some time soon...........

[jonners]

Originally Posted by driftwood

I will admit that a person who has done 1-2 season sof sprinting hillclimbing will make a very good race driver for laps 1 and 2 running on cold tyres but dont forget the race tyre is a far harder compound than the sprint tyre plus the brake pads are softer compound all designed to work form the very first moment of use. Race cars need the 1 lap warm up to create heat into the brake discs and pads and some heat into the tyres but even then it is still way below the desired temps needed to be 100% effective; so a race driver has to be thinking of getting the best from the warm up lap and then make a good start and not fall off at the 1st or 2nd corner due to cold tyres and brakes.

Equally, you could say that all racers will be a mile off the pace in a sprint/hillclimb because they're unfamiliar with the discipline.

I don't see why speed eventers are less able to adapt than racers.

In my experience most speed eventers chose not to race on the grounds of cost and likelihood of damage.

Some may not like the thought of other cars around them but - to be honest - (having watched club racing for about 25 years) there ain't a lot of racing going on out there anyway....

[terence]

And you still come along? Your right though ,it,s not often you actually see a "race" unfortuneatly

[driftwood]

A great can of worms this thread!!
I agree some good race drivers started in sprints hillclimbing i did achknowledge that point earlier
With regards to accident damage as being areason not to race i find a weak argument
even on a sprint or hilclimb driver error - over exhuburance can take its toll on the car
How often do you see 2 cars collide for no other reason than they where dicing closely and it wa sgoing to end in tears ? That is the essence of racing not playing "follow the leader" !!

wheteher your 1st or 15th in a race having a good scrap with the next guy lap after lap is what it is about honing your race craft in overtaking/defending your line late braking- learning when to loose the place to the challenger to get him back at the next corner and still try to maintain decent lap times
running your nose cone to his gear box end cover down the back straight waiing to pop out and pass in the slip stream/ braking zone

there is the odd brain fade driver late brakes gets it wrong and plows into the car in front
however Im prepared to take my chances and race not drive around the track against the clock
Ive often been the fastest car on teh track week opponents and i just feel like loading the car and going home and come back when 1 or 2 more faster cars turn up
The dice is what it is all about that is racing

Endurance racing is a different race format with pit stop tyre change driver change refuelling etc make a different race team work stratergy and reliabilty all playing a part
The oval race roundy roundy racing is another type of racing that circuit racers have often said is boring as yellow flags change the races and the fastest guy does not always win but then its geared towards entertainment 100 thousand spectators are there screaming and shouting for there driver
(ok it snot my thing) so it cant be that bad!!

The UK hotrod oval scene produces good racing fastest men at the back working there way thru the field in 10-20 laps ok a bit of push n shoving goes on but skill and daring is required- a few hotrod guys came into circuit racing and did very well

The BTCC is good racing for TV - its close but the contact is way out of control and its filtered down thru the lower/ club formulas to karting where its become "acceptable" because the BTCC guys on TV do not get punished for there actions

There are many guys who are renowned for being "hard "racers but you dont see them tossing rivals off the track

If you cannot pass the guy in front without denting his car or bashing wheels then the move was not on and aggressive banger racing tactics are being permitted to take place and the RAC stewards C of C need to take severe action to stamp it out
On track black flags for the offenders followed with C of C official warning/licence endorsement/c/ship point penalty will soon deter offenders plus any reckless driving that results in opponents car being damaged should be paid for by the offender or licence withdrawn until the matter is settled

[D-Type]

Two points under discusiion here, I think.

Racing against the clock is a different form of racing to circuit racing requiring different skills. A driver has virtually no practice, so he and his car have to be quick straight 'out of the box'. This is true whether it is hillclimbs, sprints, drag racing or LSR at Bonneville. In hillclimbs and sprints, the run is so short that a driver has to be inch perfect, requiring considerable skill. It is racing but different.

As to hooliganism on track: treating a race track like a banger track should be severely dealt with. Make the perpetrator pay for the damage would possibly work at club level. Points penalties on the basis that the perpetrator loses the points he might have gained could also work. Follow this up with a ban for one or two races or a set number of weeks. All possible if the will is there.

[jonners]

Originally Posted by driftwood

With regards to accident damage as being areason not to race i find a weak argument...How often do you see 2 cars collide for no other reason than they where dicing closely and it wa sgoing to end in tears ? That is the essence of racing not playing "follow the leader" !!...there is the odd brain fade driver late brakes gets it wrong and plows into the car in front...ok a bit of push n shoving goes on but skill and daring is required- a few hotrod guys came into circuit racing and did very well...The BTCC is good racing for TV - its close but the contact is way out of control and its filtered down thru the lower/ club formulas to karting where its become "acceptable" because the BTCC guys on TV do not get punished for there actions

Now then! Whose side are you on???

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by driftwood

A great can of worms this thread!!

running your nose cone to his gear box end cover down the back straight

there is the odd brain fade driver late brakes gets it wrong and plows into the car in front

The oval race ... its geared towards entertainment 100 thousand spectators are there screaming and shouting for there driver (ok it snot my thing) so it cant be that bad!!

The BTCC is good racing for TV - its close but the contact is way out of control and its filtered down thru the lower/club formulas to karting where its become "acceptable" because the BTCC guys on TV do not get punished for there actions

If you cannot pass the guy in front without denting his car or bashing wheels then the move was not on and aggressive banger racing tactics are being permitted to take place and the RAC stewards C of C need to take severe action to stamp it out. On track black flags for the offenders followed with C of C official warning/licence endorsement/c/ship point penalty will soon deter offenders plus any reckless driving that results in opponents car being damaged should be paid for by the offender or licence withdrawn until the matter is settled

Drifty, the can of worms was opened by you!

Running your nose cone into the gearbox of the car in front is a deliberate tactic usually employed by that rather obnoxious Jason Plato and should not be held up as an acceptable tactic or part of the fun of racing!

As for the 'odd brain fade moment' maybe the perpetrator of the action should also be made to pay for all the damage that ensues including replacing any damaged crash barriers/tyres etc.

100 thousand spectators, we are talking about Americans. I have met a lot of Yanks who think the 'roundy roundy stuff' is just pathetic and much prefer 'raod racing'. I have to agree with them and you however the 'roundy roundy' stuff does take massive amounts of skill and enormous balls!

Couldn't agree more about the BTCC. The example they set is awful and there should be more stringent application of driver conduct rules e.g. BANS plus FINES for both driver and team!

I think the problem a lot of officials face is that they are volunteers and are unpaid. If they start coming down heavily on drivers who misbehave they could easily be the target of litigation. I think the MSA must instruct all officials to apply the rules and back the officials even to the extent of paying for any legal expenses incurred.

Finally I do accept that cars get damaged in accidents whilst taking part in Speed Events however as I said before there are only ever two causes for this - Driver Error or Mechanical Failure. The same cannot be said about circuit racing and no matter how much people protest U-Tube is full of examples of RACE crashes where the innocent party is faced with massive bills!

[Jimmy Magnusson]

To give my own opinion on the original question - Is racing against the clock as challenging as racing against other competitors? - yes. Thundering through the forest at ridicolous speeds? Challenging I must say.

[terence]

Certainly is,or looking for a quick one on Sweet Lamb or some of the other Welsh stages!.

[Anuauto]

Another point to be borne in mind is that there are no professionals in speed events - so there should be no general or direct comparisons with the areas of the sport that do have such people. Each discipline has its own specialisation that has some odd effects when two come together.
Coming from a rallying background, I could invariably be quicker than the usual opposition at a brand new speed venue. Then as regulars learnt the track I would slip back. Equally, in the wet I could usually beat the speed event class opposition that would blow me away in the dry. When I have come up against professionals from the BTCC in the odd speed event (those with no experience of the discipline, not drivers like John Cleland with speed event experience), the pattern has been the better amateurs initially embarrass them but they then learn very quickly and soon get on the pace - far sooner than other amateurs would.
That's what you'd expect and it merely means the various disciplines can't be directly compared.