Europe In, Denver Out?

[luke]

Many people love to say how small Champ Car is with its races in North America and that no one cares. And to be fair the IRL as well of course but they don't have any other established non oval events yet and of course the Indy 500 doesn't count. My point being, A Denver Champ Car festival Grand Prix event maybe no news in New York, but to the whole city of Denver everyone talks about it and comes out in their numbers. Be it auto racing fans or not, street races are not as small as people say they are.
Take Long Beach for example, that's no doubt CC's current most famous event, everyone in the location knows of the event and it is still a big deal there. Such is Toronto, Edmonton, Surfers Paradise.
Once the IRL has long and established street events it will be the same for them.

[JohnSSC]

The IRL doesn't need long and established street events so much as they need more events in general to compliment the 500.

CC does not have that cornerstone event, although I would certainly agree that Surfer's could be and Long Beach should be that type of event for them.

[carsten66]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

No, it is different. Each of those things you mention has a fanbase or core audience if you will, but the common thread there is entertainment rather than "sporting event."

What's so different? And what's wrong with entertainment? Racing itself is entertainment, isn't it? All big racing series work with entertainment acts like concerts, contests, entertainment parks, shows, vip's... and the individuell fan is free to take part or not - but that's already affects only the attendants of the events, the majority of the fan base views "only" the pure race by tv or race director*- also the "sporting event".

Maybe in the past it was all about the sportive aspects but let's face it, nowadays the former ethical and performance qualities take a back seat and sport is more and more about fun, thrill - and business...

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Racing series typically have a geographic region where the events occur on a regular basis (see NASCAR or F1) during a particular time of the year. There is a "solidity" to them, if you will. The EPL would not be the EPL if random football teams just showed up in various cities and then Man U played the team du jour and moved along to the next town.

I don't know - but in the meantime where is the typically geographic region of the F1... Europe? Asia? Arabian area? And what's about all the kicked out established and famous race tracks?

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Your use of a rock group but particularly the circus is closer to what CC seems to be moving to: an entertainment act (Motorock lives on in a sense) that comes to town and leaves a few days later. There is nothing really that "anchors" the Series in our consciousness.

You are making high demands on a racing series, in this case the CCWS, and to be given more to a personal philosophical question...

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't believe that the average fan is so much deeply involved in his favorite racing series: What he expects? First and foremost what we are all expecting - good action, competition, exciting overtaking and thrilling races.

And off course a racing series should have some drivers signed where the fans can relate to...

Rome was not built in a day - and to build up a racing series needs time and I also think that the CCWS is moving foreword...

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The IRL doesn't need long and established street events so much as they need more events in general to compliment the 500.

Yet that is the direction they are moving in.

[indycool]

Carsten, there's nothing wrong with the other bells and whistles and dancing bears at these street festivals. The question is, do people go for the "festival" in general or go as the fan base for a race? If it's the former, that's a whole different dimension in trying to get TV ratings up.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by indycool

The question is, do people go for the "festival" in general or go as the fan base for a race? If it's the former, that's a whole different dimension in trying to get TV ratings up.

Your wanting the festival fan to attend, see the wares and think this racing isnt half bad, gain an interest and let that build through television and further races.

Obviously at the moment CC has alot of event fans but needs to turn them into CC fans.

Not a perfect situation but surely has a better chance than attracting new audiences than in front of 8 000 people at Laguna or Pheonix raceway

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

The IRL doesn't need long and established street events so much as they need more events in general to compliment the 500.

You're rather confident then John, I'd like to know where you got it from. Their street events are not established enough yet, once they've going on as long as Long Beach, Toronto, Surfers Paradise, that's how events become popular. The same with infact Indy 500, Le Mans 24 hours, how long have they been running now?

CC does not have that cornerstone event, although I would certainly agree that Surfer's could be and Long Beach should be that type of event for them

'Champ Car DOES NOT HAVE A CORNERSTONE EVENT?' IRL, they have just the one, the Indy 500, all the rest are just another round, hence the viewing figures are tiny for the rest of the rounds compared to the Indy 500. Champ Car has just 16 other rounds, and no big event, that's why if the IRL doesn't improve it'll always have the sponsors and interest for that one race.
Champ Car does need to have that one race or several that make it Champ Car, and it has them, Long Beach, Surfers Paradise, Toronto, Cleveland etc..

[JohnSSC]

Geez.

The festival atmosphere is fine for those attending the race itself. This is not necessarily going to build TV as folks watching TV likely do not want to see Oswald the Racing Bear. They want to see Danica vs Vitor or PT vs whoever he is behind. The "rootedness" of a series, imho, is what causes someone in Altoona to tune in on a Sunday afternoon. The baseball analogy was a good one and both series would do well to have a set schedule rather than something with multiple dates written in sponge. That will help get the fan in Altoona continuing to tune in.

Please re-read my post luke, I am simply saying that street races do not necessarily need to be long-term. We all know they are "new" to IRL and simply add to the venue mix.

Saying IRL has "just the one" cornerstone event is like saying F1 is "just at Monaco" this weekend. No offense, but CC does not have a true cornerstone event. There are as I noted possibilities but if I walk up to someone here in Pittsburgh and say: "Long Beach" they might answer: "Is that where the Queen Mary is?"

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Saying IRL has "just the one" cornerstone event is like saying F1 is "just at Monaco" this weekend. No offense, but CC does not have a true cornerstone event. There are as I noted possibilities but if I walk up to someone here in Pittsburgh and say: "Long Beach" they might answer: "Is that where the Queen Mary is?"

I know of several non racing fans who have been to California and visited Long Beach, they know of the street race there. And they are people in this country here in England. Long Beach is the most famous street event in America and no doubt the most known. Alot of people that live there or been there would likely then not know of the event.
All of the people I know who are also non racing fans throughout Australia know of the Surfers Paradise race.
All of the people I know around toronto be it racing fans or not, know of the Molson Indy.

[D.R.T.]

I hear what you are saying John but do you have an alternative for the current situation ?

[Snrub]

I don't think the cornerstone discussion is overstated. Take Nascar as an example. If they ditched Daytona, Bristol and Darlington there would still be a very successful series. What consequence is it if the casual person might not know the names of the less significant events? The point is to have a bunch of successful races. In the past "Molson Indy" whether it was Toronto or Vancouver ment Canadians were going to tune in and watch. Out of those people some of them enjoy it a lot and end up watching other races or attending the local race. So there was some geographical correlation in intersest of people in a race, but that's part of the reason why sanctioning bodies attempt to be strategic in the areas they stage races.

[JohnSSC]

Well D.R.T., you have been here a while and so you have seen many threads on some variation of "what my ideal schedule would look like."

I will try to answer in more general terms. I think that what has hurt both Series, is:

1) the general lack of stability in scheduling. Each year there are more/fewer races at the same/different venues.
2) perceived importance of the goal. NASCAR had "The Winston" for years and now it is the "Chase for the Cup." Everyone likes that competition for "the big prize." It creates buzz/interest. Look at the interest the "Triple Crown" used to get. Now it no longer exists. Nothing replaced it.
3) with no goal and no established "tour" then there is an over-reliance on the "entertainment" aspect of things to attract a crowd. Racing is secondary to the "festival atmosphere" they are seeking to create.

Now I know these are nebulous things but what got me into racing was the racing. When I went to my first Cumberland National race at Nelso Ledges I wasn't thinking: "Wow! What a festival atmaosphere!" as I was standing in the rain watching PL Newman drive a really nice Datsun 510 into a bridge abutment. I was grooving on the sights and sounds. i think there are a lot of racing fans, who, if presented with a consistent product that provided good close racing would gravitate to watching a series and generating buzz. They would not need Oswald the Racing Bear nor would they need Derek Daly reminding them just how exciting this all is.

As I started following various pro series, I was always interested in how the various teams would do when they got to Lime Rock vs Daytona. The fact that Lime Rock and Daytona were on the schedule year after year was part of the "rootedness" of things. USAC used to call their series "the Championship Trail" if I recall correctly. Now the "trail" seems to be more the meanderings of a group of race teams in need of a mass dose of Ritalin as they careen from one end of the country to the other with forays to Australia, Japan, Europe and wherever.

The bottom line for me is that the races are something that "happen" and not part of a consistent, ongoing operation that has set goals and a sense of tradition where the present is built on the past. Change should be evolutionary, not a primary component of the raison d' eterre for the series in the first place.

[marcel82]

according to pitstop.tv (a Belgian site), the race for Zolder has been rescheduled on demand of the FIA. apparently the race was to close to the Belgian GP.

Champcar race and 24 hr race have switched dates, so the new date for CC is 25th-26th august