[LM24] Le Mans 2007: Will it discredit the ACO?

[JAG]

Originally Posted by Purist

JAG, if you really think Porsche is ruining P2 and are wusses for not entering P1 right now, go tell it to the face of the CEO of PMNA.

Isn't that basically what a rep from Audi said at the end of the 2006 ALMS season?

Driving Intersport out of P2, into P1, while Penske remain in P2, seems a little counter productive to me.

I wonder how many potential P2 sales Radical, Lola and Courage have lost out on in the ALMS, do small privateers really want to go up against $1m+ RS Spyders with factory back-up?

On the other hand if Acura supply engines to P2 customers, when the factory focus moves to P1, that seems a good deal for all concerned, much like the Mazda/AER position.

[jhansen]

Maybe Porsche and Acura are more brilliant than we think. The two diesel power houses will face off at Le Mans this year against a host of privateer petrol cars (read no factory petrol opposition). The factory diesels smash the competition, which they'd do with or without diesel power (read factory teams).

The ACO then adjust the rules. Enter Porsche with a full on petrol P1 program that has essentially been gathering data since the end of 2005 in P2. Acura are doing the same. Porsche will leave behind a fleet of customer P2 cars and maybe Acura will do a customer P2 program as well.

[Matra-simca]

Before Porsche thinks about Le Mans, they've got to build a 12 hour car first......

Le Mans discredited? Never, though the FIA did make a huge attempt back in the early 90s. Only victim, unfortunately, was the Mulsanne Straight.

If any event is dicredited, brought on by their own people, then it's got to be the 24 Hours of Daytona. I remember watching the first Daytona Continental on TV in 1962... My, how times have changed.....To replace it, I keep hoping for an around-the-clock classic at Road America. I know, it'll never happen.

Todd

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Purist

Then they came out with the WSC95 for the new WSC/GT! rules.

I can't help but find that one slightly amusing.

Came out with it, via TWR/Jag and then didn't want to race it and ended up with egg on face courtesy of Joest......

[smh]

Originally Posted by Matra-simca

Before Porsche thinks about Le Mans, they've got to build a 12 hour car first......

Le Mans discredited? Never, though the FIA did make a huge attempt back in the early 90s. Only victim, unfortunately, was the Mulsanne Straight.

If any event is dicredited, brought on by their own people, then it's got to be the 24 Hours of Daytona. I remember watching the first Daytona Continental on TV in 1962... My, how times have changed.....To replace it, I keep hoping for an around-the-clock classic at Road America. I know, it'll never happen.

Todd

I have to agree about Daytona, I did it a few times and quite enjoyed it, though it got bleedin cold at night. I remember brushing ice of the golf cart seat early in the morning... It was a good test for the cars if you were entering LeMans - a proper 24hr race. The new DP cars just dont interest me at all, its like nascar with right turns.
In the ALMS I dont think P2 cars are being forced into P1 by the Porsches, but dont forget Penske have a massive backing and is more of a works team. Intersport probably left P2 because the Lola is a pretty expensive car to run and the P1 class was looking decidedly empty. Most of the P2 cars can be modified to become P1 cars and vice-versa so the costs would be similar but why race in a class where theres the most competition?

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by smh

In the ALMS I dont think P2 cars are being forced into P1 by the Porsches, but dont forget Penske have a massive backing and is more of a works team. Intersport probably left P2 because the Lola is a pretty expensive car to run and the P1 class was looking decidedly empty. Most of the P2 cars can be modified to become P1 cars and vice-versa so the costs would be similar but why race in a class where theres the most competition?

So, rather ironically, having been driven out of LMP1 because of the dominance of Audi, some competition is now returning there because the larger factory-backed numbers are now in P2! And hopefully when more numbers return to P1 they'll put the ACO 5% restriction onto P2 and Audi will stop complaining as well?

That, too, might be more of an incentive for Porsche and Acura to go P1 later on, or am I reading things completely the wrong way?

[JAG]

On Motors TV there was discussion class distinctions will be much greater in coming years.

[Purist]

Of course, the class distinctions can't be too great, at least if they're keeping the 70% rule, otherwise if you have a real problem, you'd be out of the points in a hurry.

[JAG]

C1 and C2 worked well in Group C.

Was a C2 ever competing for overall wins, even on a good day?

[Purist]

Was the Dauer 962 considered a C1?

Weren't all the Jaguar XJRs C2s?

And, which classes were the Mazda 787B and 792 in?

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Purist

Was the Dauer 962 considered a C1?

Weren't all the Jaguar XJRs C2s?

And, which classes were the Mazda 787B and 792 in?

The Dauer 962 was a GT1 car

The Jags were Group C, however istr one was entered in C2 once driven by Dave Coyne.

The 787B was a Group C1 car. But if you remember 1991 was the year of the new generation cars like the Peugeot so it was split into 2 sub classes. Cat1 for the 3.5 litre cars and Cat2 for the turbo cars.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Nordic

The Dauer 962 was a GT1 car

Strictly yes.

Morally no...... (While we're talking about things which discredit(ed) the ACO.......).

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Strictly yes.

Morally no...... (While we're talking about things which discredit(ed) the ACO.......).

Quite right, but the car did show how capable Porsche are of using rules to their own advantage when the mood takes them.

I wonder how many Dauer 962's were made. Come to that how many Toyota GTones or TWR Nissan GT1 things.


The Mazda win also highlights the fact that dispite the horsepower disadvantage it had, it was still able to win when the cards fell its way.

I am sure Pesca and the rest should take heart from the example.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Nordic

The Mazda win also highlights the fact that dispite the horsepower disadvantage it had, it was still able to win when the cards fell its way.

Yes, and as I've often been heard to mutter (in justification), recording more laps for the win thatn the Jag did the year before......

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yes, and as I've often been heard to mutter (in justification), recording more laps for the win thatn the Jag did the year before......

The Mazda's record stacks up pretty well.

362 laps is better than the winner in 90,92,95,96 and 97. I know some of those years were wet, but a pretty good show from a car alot of people gave a chance before hand.

[Mirage M6]

Originally Posted by Nordic

The Mazda win also highlights the fact that dispite the horsepower disadvantage it had, it was still able to win when the cards fell its way.

I am sure Pesca and the rest should take heart from the example.

Yes, but Mazda persuade FIA with succes to allow 787B to run with less weight than the others Cat 2 cars, and for 1991 FIA force to add 100kg to Cat 2 cars, so their weight was around 980-1000 kg...Mazda had advantage with a 840 kg car.

Cat 1 cars? everyone knew in 1991 that Cat 1 cars hadn't enough reliable to finish a 24 hours race (I don't remember exactly when Peugeot abandoned the race...approximately between the 2nd and the 4th hour I think)
So...

...Less weight for Pesca and the rest! More weight for Audi and Peugeot!

[Nordic]

Originally Posted by Mirage M6

Yes, but Mazda persuade FIA with succes to allow 787B to run with less weight than the others Cat 2 cars, and for 1991 FIA force to add 100kg to Cat 2 cars, so their weight was around 980-1000 kg...Mazda had advantage with a 840 kg car.

Cat 1 cars? everyone knew in 1991 that Cat 1 cars hadn't enough reliable to finish a 24 hours race (I don't remember exactly when Peugeot abandoned the race...approximately between the 2nd and the 4th hour I think)
So...

...Less weight for Pesca and the rest! More weight for Audi and Peugeot!

The only reason they had the weight reduction was the fact that few saw the car as a challager, I doubt it would have been offered to anyone else.

Istr that any car with a 3500cc engine was a cat1, so some pretty old Spices lined up on the grid ahead of the Cat2 mercs etc. In a effort to please the Cat 1 cars, they had the first 10 places on the grid, the real fastest car a turbo Merc started 11th and the winner 19th.

The winner in Cat1 was a Japanese driven Spice 90C in 12th and last place so in effect 91 was a pretty good year for the Japanese!

Not sure what that proves beyond the fact that true class always shines thru.

[georgeboi999]

That quite true. We wont like the P2 class dominating the race.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mirage M6

Yes, but Mazda persuade FIA with succes to allow 787B to run with less weight than the others Cat 2 cars, and for 1991 FIA force to add 100kg to Cat 2 cars, so their weight was around 980-1000 kg...Mazda had advantage with a 840 kg car.

Erm yes.

We were making the point about Mazda turning the (undoubted) advantage in their favour.

[Mirage M6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Erm yes.

We were making the point about Mazda turning the (undoubted) advantage in their favour.

Yes? mmm...I'm a bit confused with some words you and Nordic said...I have to study english again!