Toyota set to bail out? - Page 2

jonm2 · 16 Oct 2007, 17:02 (Ref:2041972)

am i the only one that sees the reliance on manufacturer teams as a bit of an issue?

after all, it seems that the big companies want to compete with one and another, but if the competition with other manufacturers becomes leaner, then they could easily move to sports cars etc.

headlesschicken · 16 Oct 2007, 17:05 (Ref:2041975)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Should never have left sportscars.........

Why go back to sportscars? they were crap there as well.

Sodemo · 16 Oct 2007, 17:17 (Ref:2041985)

The FIA has been falling over themselves, fawning to the manufacturers, it would be a stark reminder than these car makes are only in F1 until it suits them, they are not racing teams, merely car makers who happen to run a racing team as a PR excersise.

davyboy · 16 Oct 2007, 20:30 (Ref:2042162)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodemo

The FIA has been falling over themselves, fawning to the manufacturers, it would be a stark reminder than these car makes are only in F1 until it suits them, they are not racing teams, merely car makers who happen to run a racing team as a PR excersise.

You're absolutely right, and that very issue has seen the success and subsequent demise of the two US single seater racing series ChampCar and IRL.

Mekola · 16 Oct 2007, 21:17 (Ref:2042217)

davyboy, maybe manufacturers were persuaded to left ChampCar in favour of F1.

jab · 16 Oct 2007, 21:32 (Ref:2042229)

Quote:

Originally Posted by davyboy

You're absolutely right, and that very issue has seen the success and subsequent demise of the two US single seater racing series ChampCar and IRL.

And pretty much the death of the WRC and the DTM

Neil22 · 16 Oct 2007, 22:11 (Ref:2042259)

Toyotas lack of success in F1 and their deal with NASCAR makes this news probable unless of course they buy Williams.

**GTRMagic** · 16 Oct 2007, 22:32 (Ref:2042269)

Why would buying Williams make any sense? Its not like they are dominating Grand Prix weekends with their outright speed is it?

The only reason I figured a change to Mr Alonso may have made sense was around the Schumi-Ferrari hookup... it may not bring them to the front of the grid overnight, but it will happen...

(Yes I know it didnt work for Happy Jacques & BAR...)

There are no magic bullets... just steps towards the end game... much better than a retreat

MRJUCY · 16 Oct 2007, 23:14 (Ref:2042284)

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

If Toyota secures Mr Alonso, it might just be a whole other ballgame

I don’t know how much he could achieve really. Trulli kept him much more honest at Renault then Fisi did.

I think putting the money into Williams would get a much better result then they are with their own team.

BootsOntheSide · 16 Oct 2007, 23:29 (Ref:2042291)

Poaching Fernando for 2 years and throwing huge money at the team might be the last chance for Toyota to win in F1 as a full constructor. If he is correct in claiming to have brought six tenths of a second to McLaren, he could feasibly bring over a second to Toyota immediately. The team would look serious, and could hope to gel as a team much more.

If one manufacturer leaves, others could leave pretty quickly - Toyota and Honda look vulnerable, although Renault seem more committed than 2 years ago. I'd rather go to customer cars than 3-car teams, as bigger squads could ultimately lead to more teams pulling out.

**GTRMagic** · 17 Oct 2007, 03:04 (Ref:2042344)

So why dont Toyota do what Henry Ford never managed, and buy Fiat with this week's petty cash float

A Toyota-Ferrari

Jimmy Magnusson · 17 Oct 2007, 06:07 (Ref:2042371)

No need for customer cars, just make it more privateer friendly. If you're going to use customer cars you should go back to pre-concord agreement rules; if not, go back to the early 90s. I'm sure that there's many privateer teams that would jump at the chance of getting into F1 (eg Carlin).

duke_toaster · 17 Oct 2007, 16:26 (Ref:2042806)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Magnusson

No need for customer cars, just make it more privateer friendly

So Carlin have the resources to build their own chassis, yeah?

Quote:

If you're going to use customer cars you should go back to pre-concord agreement rules; if not, go back to the early 90s. I'm sure that there's many privateer teams that would jump at the chance of getting into F1 (eg Carlin).

IMO we should have a system where there are customer chassis (with a price cap) and any team which is financially stable and can enter 2 cars can compete. No upper limit on teams, just allow anyone that won't go bust half way through the season.

**Peter Mallett** · 17 Oct 2007, 17:06 (Ref:2042844)

Isn't this the natural result of turning it into a manufacturer championship? If one of them loses the shareholders ask questions and when the answers are of a sporting rather than business nature, the plug is pulled.

Mulsanne Bleu · 17 Oct 2007, 19:59 (Ref:2043012)

All I can say to them is...stuff F1 and stick to WRC and sportscar racing

Mulsanne Bleu · 17 Oct 2007, 20:01 (Ref:2043015)

Quote:

Originally Posted by headlesschicken

Why go back to sportscars? they were crap there as well.

Does that include JSPC, IMSA, JGTC

headlesschicken · 18 Oct 2007, 16:59 (Ref:2043783)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WLLRNNN

Does that include JSPC, IMSA, JGTC

Perhaps crap was too strong, if their presence in sportcar racing was to win Le Mans, then despite JSPC,IMSA, JGTC etc they were pretty poor.

Knowlesy · 18 Oct 2007, 17:24 (Ref:2043796)

Their last WRC venture wasn't exactly great either. Plenty of speed, plenty of wins, but no titles (did they get the manufacturers in '99? Can't remember...I shall have to watch the old Top Gear Rally Reports I just got

).

Toyota are making noises about going radical for 2008 with their car design. This worries me greatly. Radical means McLaren MP4/18A or Honda RA107 as opposed to Ferrari F2002...

Teretonga · 18 Oct 2007, 19:23 (Ref:2043900)

OK
So Alonso goes to Toyota for 2008 and Toyota run a Williams derived chassis.
Prodrive also run Williams chassis and Toyota engines in 2008
At the end of 2008 Toyota pulls out of F1 but Prodrive continues to run Williams Toyota's and Alonso transfers, paid by Toyota, and drives for Frank.

Happy?

Mr Revhead · 18 Oct 2007, 20:30 (Ref:2043957)

ok, some ppl are forgetting some things here.

F1 vs NASCAR/CART/IRL

the american arm of toyota is very independant, and the USA market is very large and doesnt have much to do with the rest of the world as far as marketing goes.
so any involvment in american series will have little to no effect on F1.
remember, i, talking from toyotas point of view, not a general point of view.

2nd, toyota are still new to F1. can anyone recall any other larger company/team jumping into F1 and having sucsess within a few years?
money buys lots of things, but it cant buy what it takes 10 years to learn.
yes they have been dissapointed/ing but look at honda, how long have they been involved in F1?

i do not think they will pull out of F1 yet. toyotas philosophy is kaisen, meaning constant improvment. they are not into giving up.

also i work for toyota and im incredibly biased

Ralf's Girl · 18 Oct 2007, 20:55 (Ref:2043972)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Revhead

2nd, toyota are still new to F1. can anyone recall any other larger company/team jumping into F1 and having sucsess within a few years?
money buys lots of things, but it cant buy what it takes 10 years to learn.

i do not think they will pull out of F1 yet. toyotas philosophy is kaisen, meaning constant improvment. they are not into giving up.

If it's not cost effective, though, I don't think the powers that be will just keep pouring money in the way they have been doing. Jaguar tried to be successful by throwing money at their F1 project, and that didn't get them very far - no surprise, then, that there's no Jaguar F1 team anymore.

Marbot · 19 Oct 2007, 00:07 (Ref:2044092)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

no surprise, then, that there's no Jaguar F1 team anymore.

That's Bull actually,RedBull to be precise.

RedBull at least had something to work with (RB1) until Adrian Newey came along.

mac · 19 Oct 2007, 00:16 (Ref:2044096)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

Toyota are making noises about going radical for 2008 with their car design. This worries me greatly. Radical means McLaren MP4/18A or Honda RA107 as opposed to Ferrari F2002...

Toyota doesn't really do radical... The Toyota way is to make small, but continuous improvements. Look at the generational change of their road cars - all slightly better than their previous version in virtually all ways, but never any giant, crazy leap forward.

There are a few exceptions like the GT-One and the new Lexus LF-A - hopefully they might see fit to finally throw caution to the wind with the F1 program. I can't see them vaulting up the grid anytime soon taking baby steps.

Mr Revhead · 19 Oct 2007, 00:35 (Ref:2044111)

well actually, they have made some big jumps in road car design lately....
ae111 corolla to the zze122 was a major change. completly new chassis and engines.
im seeing a lot of major changes in new models lately. hopefully it works!

im hoping for a big improvemen in F1... there has to be!
or there will be some large heads rolling!

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