McLaren 2007,when did it start to go wrong??

[Born Racer]

I also think McLaren would have pulled off the drivers title by backing one of their drivers.

But F1 wouldn't be half as thrilling. And I'm not solely taking into account the particularly tempestuous Alonso/Hamilton partnership, but am speaking generally- the sport would be the poorer for it.

Either have drivers going at it hammer and tongs or have one-car teams.

[Knowlesy]

I'm not saying I'd like to see that, just that recent history shows it is the logical thing to do.

[duke_toaster]

When they didn't sack Alonso after Hungary.

[Gt_R]

Quote:"I also think McLaren would have pulled off the drivers title by backing one of their drivers."

I have to disagree. Until the 2nd last race of the year, Mclaren looks like they will pull off winning the drivers' title by (supposedly) not backing either (as they claim). And Ferrari had let their drivers race each other too (arguably, until the final race). So although history from previous few years showed a number 1 and number 2 may be an easier route, both Mclaren and Ferrari have shown this year a 2-driver system can still succeed, with the condition your next competitor is not running a number 1/2 and has a car not as good.

Ron will be kicking himself... he can blame the spygate, the media, the FIA... but ultimately, he will recognize that it the team themselves who(incl ron and lewis) lost the drivers by their own mistakes in china and brazil.

[Javi]

[QUOTE=Gt_R]

both Mclaren and Ferrari have shown this year a 2-driver system can still succeed, with the condition your next competitor is not running a number 1/2 and has a car not as good

.

If BMW, which was the "third" team, had been more able to fight for podiums, I think both McLaren and Ferrari would have to support one clear number 1 from mid season. What happened this year was that, (realiability problems apart), the worst you could find your mclaren or ferrari driver was 4th, so most every driver was with a shot at the title until, let´s see turkey. But if there had been more cars involved in the fight for podiums I think you would have seen (at least ferrari) backing a number 1 far before.

[Javi]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I've only read the first few posts of the thread, but you seem more rational than a lot of the Spanish media (and I can read Spanish, so I'm not reading translations.)

But maybe it was simply getting to the point, where Hamilton with a season of experience, was starting to become a significantly faster driver than Alonso.

I am a journalist ... (no, I am not), but I think press is the same everywhere, Spain...and UK!!

Do you really think Hamilton is a faster driver than Alonso?? I don´t...

[GTRMagic]

When did it start to go wrong for McLaren? Probably about the time they announced that Mr Alonso was joining the team....

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by Javi

Do you really think Hamilton is a faster driver than Alonso?? I don´t...

I think he is now. Who else has had 3 wins in F1 at a circuit that's new to them and not to their team-mate?

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Who else has had 3 wins in F1 at a circuit that's new to them and not to their team-mate?

The same person that was outclassed in most of the circuits they both knew. LH had the luxury of a certain McLaren simulator (or excessive knowledge of Playstation's F1 game if you believe a laughable press release before Brazil), that's all.

[ensign14]

"Outclassed"? But for mechanical troubles he'd've been 15 points ahead come season end, probably. He lost a net 8 to Alonso just through Bstone cocking up a tyre.

[Javi]

I think they´re evenly matched on pace. But remember, Hamilton´s still a rookie. Hamilton drove beautifully at the beginning of the year when he was in "safe mode", collecting points and with a car set up by Mr.Alonso. At that time Alonso made the mistakes that will cost him title, probably (barcelona, canada...). When pressure was on, at the end of the year, China and Brazil, Hamilton made really costly mistakes (that surely Alonso will not have made in his position, with that huge point advantage two races to go). Hamilton is superfast, but still a rookie. Alonso is a twice WDC, do not bury him still...

[Javi]

Originally Posted by ensign14

"Outclassed"? But for mechanical troubles he'd've been 15 points ahead come season end, probably. He lost a net 8 to Alonso just through Bstone cocking up a tyre.

Hamilton´s driving style is really hard on the tyres, specially the fronts. It´s not up to bridgestone to bulid a tyre specifically for him. He is really fast at the cost of ruining the tyres. It´s a compromise Hamilton must accept. Many times it will pay off, some time he´ll destroy a tyre and accept losing points...

[ensign14]

I was thinking of the delamination at Turkey. Apparently was a manufacturing error.

And Hamilton made one mistake (at China). Brazil was a calculated risk - as he said "I had plenty of time to make it up". And despite being mired in traffic he did make it up. Only for a glitch to render it nugatory.

[garcon]

I wouldn't say Hamilton was outclassed this season at all. He came within a hair's breadth of winning the WDC at his first attempt despite his team's apparent ineptitude.

[BootsOntheSide]

It went wrong the second The Sun and similar newspapers were founded. Monaco was transformed into a Team Orders outrage by a xenophobic press, and the events leading up to the final minutes in Hungary qualifying were largely ignored. Lewis was hyped to the extent that he thought he was untouchable, while the Spanish press jumped to the defence of Fernando. That made it impossible for them to truly work together, whereas Ferrari had a united front all season.

Renault underperforming and BMW not quite reaching McLaren/Ferrari level had an effect too, as did the points system. Solid third and fourth place finishes keep you in the championship battle, making it harder for teams to favour a single driver.

Everything has counted against McLaren this year. Although the spygate situation hasn't helped, they could have won the drivers' title were it not for interferance from others.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Javi

Hamilton´s driving style is really hard on the tyres, specially the fronts. It´s not up to bridgestone to bulid a tyre specifically for him. He is really fast at the cost of ruining the tyres. It´s a compromise Hamilton must accept. Many times it will pay off, some time he´ll destroy a tyre and accept losing points...

I thought it was Alonso who is hard on the fronts, due to his very sharp turn-in style, and Hamilton who is hard on the rears, due to him liking the car to be slightly loose. Hence what happened in China.

[Javi]

I agree with you, Hamilton VS Alonso has been taken by the press as a second cape trafalgar battle, UK against Spain...

probably it was a manufacturing error in turkey, but, from my knowledge, when there´s a manufacturing error, it is not for just one piece (one tyre), but a set of them. Maybe (I am not sure, anyone remember?) other drivers used this tyres but they were not as affected. i do not know.
To me Hamilton acted in Brazil as pure rookie, complete opposite as the way he has driven all year, so mature and so professional. He knew his car was in far better shape than Alonso´s (had been faster all weekend), and tried to sunk Alonso down by overtaking him. He sholud have remembered that, apart from Alonso, there was a certain ferrari guy who would probably win that race...

[Go_For_Pole]

Originally Posted by strider

I thought it was Alonso who is hard on the fronts, due to his very sharp turn-in style, and Hamilton who is hard on the rears, due to him liking the car to be slightly loose. Hence what happened in China.

That was Alonso of the Michelin era, not any more. If anything after France he has been protecting his tyres much better than Hamilton who overused his and blocked repeatedly under braking. By the way, Hamilton's tyre failure in Turkey was only fully explained by Bridgestone in Monza and it certainly not due to manifacturing error but set-up/driving style.

Originally Posted by garcon

I wouldn't say Hamilton was outclassed this season at all. He came within a hair's breadth of winning the WDC at his first attempt despite his team's apparent ineptitude.

Yes but I have not said that, I said on the tracks that LH had already raced in (ie European ones).

[Patrick Fletche]

Originally Posted by strider

I thought it was Alonso who is hard on the fronts, due to his very sharp turn-in style, and Hamilton who is hard on the rears, due to him liking the car to be slightly loose. Hence what happened in China.

And at the British GP.
It will be even worse without TC.

Next year conserving tyres will decide races far more.

[climb]

when did it start to go wrong?
probably, on a certain day in a certain copy shop ..

[NiG_21]

Originally Posted by Kebab

...meanwhile Hamilton who was sliding all over the show and touching barriers....

I have always wondered why when stating this about Lewis's driving at Monaco this year - no-one has attested to the complete statement that ALL the drivers touch the barriers a number of times during this race.

This is the primary reason why all the teams strengthen the suspension units for this race... Lewis, by seperate statement, was the only driver that admitted it.

It doesn't make him any different to any other driver in that race...
I agree though... he should have accepted the teams instructions and in reality if left to race it out he would not have caught Alonso.

[Ingsy]

Going back to what was mentioned a few posts ago, weren't the drivers brought in earlier in Monaco through fear of a safety car period? With the new rules they didn't want to be caught short by the pit lane closing, so when their position was clear they both came in a bit earlier.

As for where did it all go wrong, as soon as the British media started hyping Lewis up as the return of Jesus I should think. However level headed you are, it must be hard to keep your feet on the ground going through all that. Perhaps he started to believe the hype himself and do things that he otherwise wouldn't have done, like ignoring the team in Hungary.

And Alonso, regardless of whether he was actually given equal equipment or not, was always going feel as he wasn't number 1. A british driver, in a British team which has fostered his career over the last 10 years. As soon as it became clear how good Lewis was, Alonso should have come out and said something like "Lewis is a hell of a lot better thnan I thought he would be, I'm going to have a really tough year this year." Rather than blaming the team.

Anyway, all credit to McLaren and their equailty thing. Two drivers with the same number of wins, both on 109 points at the end of the season, you can't get much fairer than that. It's just a shame (for them) that Kimi got 110....

[Kebab]

Originally Posted by NiG_21

I have always wondered why when stating this about Lewis's driving at Monaco this year - no-one has attested to the complete statement that ALL the drivers touch the barriers a number of times during this race.

This is the primary reason why all the teams strengthen the suspension units for this race... Lewis, by seperate statement, was the only driver that admitted it.

It doesn't make him any different to any other driver in that race...
I agree though... he should have accepted the teams instructions and in reality if left to race it out he would not have caught Alonso.

I never said that Hamilton was the only driver to do it.

It was clear to see to anyone watching the race that Hamilton was pushing to the max (it was even mentioned on the ITV coverage that he should calm down for fear of binning it). Alonso was far more within his limits, much less sliding, looking in control and going faster at the same time.

Of course everyone touches the barriers (you can see the rubber on the barriers afterwards) ...but not everyone does it after the team have told you to hold position & preserve the car 'cos you're 50 seconds ahead of the competition .... that's the point.

[pca]

Originally Posted by Kebab

Bad, bad management in my opinion ...

I quote only the conclusion, but great post.