So lets turn back the clock and dream a little

[Tony Clifton]

If we could turn back the clock to say 1994 what could have been done to prevent the split which is ultimately killing CART/CCWS/IRL/USA open wheel racing?

I see the main problem being that team owners were also board members which did not allow for ONE person to make rules changes that were for the best of the sport.
CART's other big problem was that they did not have a CEO who was committed to the long term health of the series.
I would have also been against CART going public.

I do realize that TG created the IRL so that he could control open wheel racing in the USA and virtually ANYTHING CART did would not have satisfied him

I do not want to turn this thread into an anti-IRL thread, so please just constructive input here.

[Fish_Flake]

Membership in CART's Board of Directors should have been extended not only to Tony George, but to all track owners and street race organizers. The CEO position should have been filled by someone with a background in auto racing. Furthermore, a commissioner position should have been created to be filled by a non-board member former racer (off the top of my head, Al Unser Sr.). The CEO should have had veto power over the board's decisions on administrative matters, and the commissioner should have had veto power over the board's decisions on competition matters.

[JohnSSC]

This thread could get exciting! But before it does, I think Fish and Tony are on the right track here. The table for CART's failure was set long before the split/bankruptcy. In my own opinion, it was (as noted above) the structure of the BOD that was the root cause.

I am sure that almost any minute, though, someone will drop by and point out that TG is responsible for everything from the use of anthrax as a bio-weapon to the Split!

Like any accident/failure, there is typically not one but many underlying causes which taken by themselves are not significant. Taken together, they become quite a snowball. I think the only important point is that in the end, greed and hubris turned out to be the true enemy. I guess that is why the Greeks referred to their dramas as "tragedies..." The Gods just can't stand the hubris particularly...

I am going to tiptoe away quietly now so as not to be in the way when the inevitable thread-locking occurs...

[Mystery]

Has half of this thread been deleted or have the usual protagonists not found it yet?

Can't disagree with anything said so far. Seems like somehow the pre-split CART guys took their eyes off the ball, TG took his toys elsewhere and things have only got worse.

[Purist]

I saw something on a clip of the Indy 500 from 1990 or so that I thought mentioned TG proposing a new, more F1-like, engine formula for 1991. Am I completely off? And if this was the case, did the teams approve of the change?

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by Purist

I saw something on a clip of the Indy 500 from 1990 or so that I thought mentioned TG proposing a new, more F1-like, engine formula for 1991. Am I completely off? And if this was the case, did the teams approve of the change?

Ah, yes. The horrid "Universal Engine Formula" that was all the rage amongst megalomaniac racing honchos in the early nineties. Thinking that making engine regs for the World Sportscar Championship identical to Formula 1 would bring Ferrari back to Le Mans and Porsche and the British marques back to the Grand Prix circus, the Bernie Ecclestone pushed the FIA to mandate the change shortly after the introduction of the 3.5 liter F1 formula in 1989. The FIA didn't gauge the manufacturer's interest in the idea, and as it turned out, no one other than Mercedes-Benz was too keen of the proposal. As a result, the Group C prototype category collapsed almost overnight, and the World Sportscar Championship ceased to exist after 1992.

The most likely scenario is that many of the IndyCar owners and drivers had close ties to IMSA, whose GTP class was interchangeable with Group C except for the latter's fuel consumption limits. IMSA was dramatically affected by the Universal Engine Formula and Group C's rapid fall from grace, and they knew firsthand how dire the consequences would be if IndyCar took the same route. Since not only the CART owners but also the part-time Indy entrants (many of them from IMSA) would have nothing to do with the engine change, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway shelved the proposal.

[Tony Clifton]

Does anybody have access to the original TG complaints and demands that he made back in 1992 or 1993?
I cannot remember back that far as to what his concerns and demands were.

Reason for this post is I read Dr. Steve Olvey's book this weekend and I had a fairly long social conversation with then Phoenix International Raceway owner Buddy Jobe back in 1996.
What Jobe told me was that then CART owners were a bunch of arrogant people that were very difficult to deal with and in retrospect he made a sort of humorous comment about foreign drivers "who cares about Gil DeFerran anyway?!".
Olvey made a couple of comments in his book about CART management being difficult and they had the tendency to run over people.

IMO the open wheel racing problem we deal with today is a direct result of a bunch of bad decision made by a bunch of short sighted individuals. Which is quite strange when you look at the background of team owners they were all successful businessmen before entering the racing business, yet none could look beyond their own garage doors as to what was good not only for their race teams, but ultimately the sport and overall health of the CART series.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by Fish_Flake

Ah, yes. The horrid "Universal Engine Formula" that was all the rage amongst megalomaniac racing honchos in the early nineties. Thinking that making engine regs for the World Sportscar Championship identical to Formula 1 would bring Ferrari back to Le Mans and Porsche and the British marques back to the Grand Prix circus, the Bernie Ecclestone pushed the FIA to mandate the change shortly after the introduction of the 3.5 liter F1 formula in 1989. The FIA didn't gauge the manufacturer's interest in the idea, and as it turned out, no one other than Mercedes-Benz was too keen of the proposal. As a result, the Group C prototype category collapsed almost overnight, and the World Sportscar Championship ceased to exist after 1992.

The most likely scenario is that many of the IndyCar owners and drivers had close ties to IMSA, whose GTP class was interchangeable with Group C except for the latter's fuel consumption limits. IMSA was dramatically affected by the Universal Engine Formula and Group C's rapid fall from grace, and they knew firsthand how dire the consequences would be if IndyCar took the same route. Since not only the CART owners but also the part-time Indy entrants (many of them from IMSA) would have nothing to do with the engine change, the Indianapolis Motor Speedway shelved the proposal.

A couple of points...

* Mercedes was not the only Sportscar entrant interested in the 3.5 formula.

* Toyota, Peugeot, Mazda, Jaguar also built and raced 3.5 l cars. Porsche's 962 ran as well.

* IMSA never adopted these rules, and was not directly affected by them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the end, the split was caused by too many people, who were overconfident of the product they were delivering, and not understanding the importance of all the components of the series.

[Fish_Flake]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

A couple of points...

* Mercedes was not the only Sportscar entrant interested in the 3.5 formula.

* Toyota, Peugeot, Mazda, Jaguar also built and raced 3.5 l cars. Porsche's 962 ran as well.

* IMSA never adopted these rules, and was not directly affected by them.

To clarify, Group C's demise in Europe was due to the rising costs that were a result of the change to the 3.5L formula. Before the change, Group C was a technologically open formula where teams could use various means to meet the end goal, which was to be competitive within fuel consumption limits. The diversity of the series meant that costs could stay relatively low, and privateers could either develop their own machines or purchase a factory car at a reasonable price. After the change, Group C cars essentially became Formula 1 cars with roofs and fenders, and thus the higher costs priced out the privateers. Porsche halted development of the 962 to focus on their IndyCar project; Jaguar was using a Cosworth F1 engine; and Mazda's prototype was an outsourced Jaguar XJR chassis fitted with a Judd F1 engine. Sauber-Mercedes and Peugeot decided by 1993 that at the cost of what it was worth to compete in the World Endurance Championship, they could be racing in Formula 1, and abandoned their prototype efforts, which was the fatal blow for sports car racing in Europe.

IMSA was not affected directly by Group C's demise, nor did it suffer a catastrophic blow like the cancellation of an entire season due to a lack of interest, but it was affected nonetheless indirectly. You're right in saying that IMSA did not adopt the Universal Engine Formula, but without a healthy companion series in Europe, development of GTP cars came to a standstill. When Toyota and All American Racers came out with the Gurney Eagle, it completely decimated its outdated competition, as if Dallara and Chevrolet combined to launch a GM-backed Champ Car program in 2005. So in 1994, IMSA established the WSC class, which was like reverting back to single-seater Can-Am after the GTP era. The new cars couldn't attract an audience like its predecessor did, which led to the ALMS and its split with Grand-Am.

But that's off topic. CART's failing was the inability for the team owners to make decisions beyond their own best interests, and a lack of checks and balances on their power. The other people who make the races happen (namely the facility owners and race organizers) needed seats at the table, and someone without a finger in the pie needed to keep watch over them. If the team owners had any sense of solidarity, the mass exodus to the IRL over engines might not have happened, and the ball would still have been in their court. Instead, they only looked out only for them and theirs, and the union crumbled.

[stradlin21]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

This thread could get exciting! But before it does, I think Fish and Tony are on the right track here. The table for CART's failure was set long before the split/bankruptcy. In my own opinion, it was (as noted above) the structure of the BOD that was the root cause.

I am sure that almost any minute, though, someone will drop by and point out that TG is responsible for everything from the use of anthrax as a bio-weapon to the Split!

Like any accident/failure, there is typically not one but many underlying causes which taken by themselves are not significant. Taken together, they become quite a snowball. I think the only important point is that in the end, greed and hubris turned out to be the true enemy. I guess that is why the Greeks referred to their dramas as "tragedies..." The Gods just can't stand the hubris particularly...

I am going to tiptoe away quietly now so as not to be in the way when the inevitable thread-locking occurs...

Good points John

I think we all have our own opinions on the split but I guess we all have the same opinion of what we want to see in future.......i'm not optimistic but hopefully one day it will happen....

OW will rise again (nothing against NASCAR! i'm a NASCAR fan, just like OW more)

[JohnSSC]

If open wheel (and I use the term generically) could get it's act together there is an opportunity: NASCAR race attendance is down as is the TV. That means there are race fans who (potentially) might take a look at a viable alternative.

Properly presented, OW could turn the head of an ex-NASCAR fan or two. Problem is that neither Series is overly viable right now. IRL has the 500, but have not figured out how to package same with the series to attract a larger fan base. Between NASCAR with the CoT, CC with the Panoz and IRL with (essentially) the Dallara you have 3 spec series to go with all of the other feeder spec series' out there.

A non-spec series would be welcome...

JohnSSC ducks out of the thread, amazed at it's longevity...

[stradlin21]

i'm not keen on that COT that NASCAR have, but that's for another thread

i wasn't aware that NASCAR race attendance and tv audience was down, i actually thought it would get bigger with the addition of JPM and Franchitti, names that are more familier to the european audience than Jeff Gordon, Jimmie Johnson and so on...

I was thinking that around 2003 the IRL might be able to get somewhere near NASCAR when all the big teams defected but the IRL didn't really make the best use of what it had, losing the race at Phoenix to me was a massive blow, cutting a race at Texas and losing Michigan are yet more example's of things going wrong (and i'm an IRL fan saying that!)

Like you said John, both series are not presented well, i remember JV commenting on it a while back and he is right. NASCAR knows how to get it's product accross and gets maximum exposure at the moment, sponsors are queing up to get their names on top cars, something the IRL and Champ Car can only dream about, will that change? i'm not sure...

[2112]

So how about the first real split in 1979? Open wheel racing was mostly always controlled by the folks in the Hulman family through USAC. Which was created by Tony Hulman in the 50`s to replace the AAA. The problem was the gross mismanagement of USAC that lead to CART to begin with. The Indy 500 was USAC`s baby, but they did not know how to manage a racing series. During the CART years a racing series was being built to high popularity levels outside of Indiana....something USAC could not accomplish in all those years of thier tenure. What we got in the the second split was a return to Hulman series rule, and all that goes with it....not much.
A compromise would have served the sport and it`s fans much better.

[JohnSSC]

Funny, isn't it, 2112 to look back at those early CART schedules and see only a road course or two. The CART schedule of 1980 does not look a lot different than that of 2008 - with the exception of some of the venues of course.

I do not think that AOWR has been anywhere near NASCAR in popularity since the early 90's, or will it again. While CC's mantra seems to be inconsistency, NASCAR is calling for "less change" in '08 to get their fan base in order. At this point though, AOWR would be delighted if the fans who no longer tune in or go to a NASCAR race would migrate en masse...

Best we can hope for over the next few years is for AOWR to become a thriving niche category - and I am probably being overly-optimistic.

[fazzaz]

John,

There's not enough time (nor enough electrons) for me to try to write everything I'm thinking. I was born within five miles of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and when I grew up the only national racing series was the AAA Championship Trail. If I turn the clock back just a few years, though, I guess I could try a few suppositions:

1) Suppose the USAC plane crash didn't happen in 1978. Would this alleged "gross mismanagement" (wow -- that's grounds for all sorts of civil damages, by the way) from USAC have been different? Would there have been no CART?

2) When Carl Haas went to Tony George (and the Hulman family) to demand a shorter time spend at Indianapolis in May and a percentage of the IMS revenues for the team owners, suppose that instead of threats that the teams might not show up for the race Haas suggested ways that would have worked for both the teams and the Speedway. What if Haas had suggested a long-term agreement so that the Hulman/George family knew there would be guaranteed cars for the 500. Would there still be one series?

3) Same scenario as (2): Suppose after the Haas/CART threats of no cars, the Hulman/George family decided to deal instead with a stable sanctioning body. Would the Indy 500 be NASCAR's biggest race today?

(I suppose I could add one more: Will the 2010 Indy 500 be NASCAR's biggest race?)

Fz

[JohnSSC]

fazzaz,
I had forgotten about the plane crash. funny how things like that can have an effect that ripples out far beyond the tragedy that it was for the families.

And yes, if Haas' approach was more in the spirit of a negotiation than delivering a shopping list, things could have been much different...

[mountainstar]

If one looks at period magazines from 1991-1994, CART was the feared enemy of F1 and Nascar. How the mighty has fallen. It is quite sad.

I believe in the marketplace there is exists the same potential that was before. One of the great things with CART was the great diversity of drivers, engines, tracks and teams.