2008 VMRC dates

[NewsStalker]

The funny part is Friday practice at PI works perfectly. Well managed, plenty of track time with long sessions, good safety record and generally on schedule.

Because it is usually organised and run primarily by the track owner/operator and NOT PIARC.

there is disproportionate amount of time given to F/Vee on those practice days.It is not divide evenly into classes so F/F and F/Vee do very well out of that.

And this is usually because these categories are the ones that DO turn up, CONTINUE to go out every session and therefore utulise the available track time. Sedan categories, in the main, tend to go out for one, two at the most, sessions in the day and then either fix what was broken, work on the car or simply go home.

there are substantially less starters in the last race for category on the weekend compared to qualifying or the first race

Now I wonder why this is? Again, usually because of accident or mechanical damage to cars during the course of the weekend.

and most C of c are moving as fast as possible

But NOT at PI - they have a timetable and, come hell or high water, they stick to it - EVEN when they are running behind schedule. How often have you actually heard Cage ***** and moan because he can't go and do 'his flying lap' (and heaven help anyone that gets in his way on the way home from the track - double lines? They are there simply to help guide the overtaking car down the road).

PI DOES have a reputaiton for having unneccesary and prolonged breaks between EVERY session (this is in addition to any clean up time they also have to allow for).

[Silver 3]

To many points to make that are a diversion.
Point about F/F and F/V having greater numbers-- wrong- generally that was my point-- relatively few cars in a split session. Other categories were combined despite 3/4/5 times the number of cars ( Is Magic 2007) .
The less starters point-- generally mechanical attrition- effectively running beyond the budget.This is not meant as a criticism-- just that more is not necessarily desirable in all categories.
Re PIARC-- as i said-- I have not really seen the issue you raise-- so cannot say if that is a change or not. Some strange things do happen- but Piarc are not alone in that.Many competitors (and others) sound off about things that are not a correct summary of what was going on-- I have been put in the position of seeing myself and then hearing C of C explanation and then being roasted by competitors for reasons being explained-- so I have become more cautious untill I get more facts.

[NewsStalker]

IOW John it doesn't happen beacuse you don;t belive it happens? s for this particular problem (the 'rigid schedule' and track opening/closing all the time) happening with others - the majority of tracks gave up this inflexibility many years ago because of the agro it caused. But the best car club in Australia refuses to give up something that works at the GP..

[aussiefveeracer]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

You said in earlier post that you were sitting all kitted up on the marshalling grid-- so how would you know what was causing delay? As I said previously-- in recent times I have watched carefully this particular issue-- not just at P.Is-
and most C of c are moving as fast as possible. I guess what I am saying is that when you look at bigger picture issues you become more tolerant - and certainly understanding. I also emphasize that this is down to the decision making individuals-- not an AASA vs CAMS issue.

We know if an on-track incident (whether crash, gravel or oil) caused the delay cause either we ask someone whilst wondering why no cars have gone around the track for the last five minutes, or we ask questions once we get off the track. When the people with drivers at the dummy grid have no clue, and when they ask the grid marshalls and get no reason, one has to wonder what is causiong the delay.

Originally Posted by Silver 3

The relevence of track time-- it costs $ X per minute to run a car. The faster the car-the higher the dollar cost. Increasing track time does not improve quality-- in fact it reduces it. The Sports Sedan example illustrates this perfectly. Racing should be about quality-not quantity.

Are we talking about state racing here or something else? Not saying state racing doesn't produce good racing, but for the most part competitors at a state racing level are self-funded. ANYTHING that delivers competitors better value for their hard earned dollars is going to win the hearts and minds of competitors. At state level it is all about competitors as we are the ones funding the event.

And to say increased track time reduces quality (what ever that is) is utter..... Again this is state racing. There are no mass crowds watching. There is no TV coverage. Competitors want an opportunity to show their stuff, better develop some skills and enjoy themselves. How does handing over $330 for one hour of track time, compared to handing over $210 for nearly 1.5 hours of track time make the competitors produce better quality.

And if there is less starters in the last race, it goes back to my earlier point that what happens on AND off the track is all part of a race weekend. A forum like this spends all year talking about motorsport, when it only really occurs over a finite period of time. Proving we are all interested in what happens off track. At a state level that raises little interest, but for those competing it certainly does. Hence if I'm better prepared and come second in the first three races, but win the last when the leaders car breaks down, and take the round win, I've got something to be proud of. Whilst for the few people watching that last race may not have been provided close and exciting racing, I can assure you the competitor has enjoyed every minute and has still put in a huge effort to drive a race car around a track at a fast pace and made no race ending errors. To that extent quantity produced better quality as only the quality competitors and cars of that weekend make it to the end.

Originally Posted by Silver 3

Other categories were combined despite 3/4/5 times the number of cars ( Is Magic 2007)

That wasn't my recollection at all! Other practice sessions may have had maybe 2/3 times the number of cars on track, but in sheer category numbers, it was pretty even all round.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by aussiefveeracer

We know if an on-track incident (whether crash, gravel or oil) caused the delay cause either we ask someone whilst wondering why no cars have gone around the track for the last five minutes, or we ask questions once we get off the track. When the people with drivers at the dummy grid have no clue, and when they ask the grid marshalls and get no reason, one has to wonder what is causiong the delay.
COMMENT: that is a very imprecise way to be so assertive on your conclusion.

Are we talking about state racing here or something else? Not saying state racing doesn't produce good racing, but for the most part competitors at a state racing level are self-funded. ANYTHING that delivers competitors better value for their hard earned dollars is going to win the hearts and minds of competitors. At state level it is all about competitors as we are the ones funding the event.

And to say increased track time reduces quality (what ever that is) is utter..... Again this is state racing. There are no mass crowds watching. There is no TV coverage. Competitors want an opportunity to show their stuff, better develop some skills and enjoy themselves. How does handing over $330 for one hour of track time, compared to handing over $210 for nearly 1.5 hours of track time make the competitors produce better quality.
COMMENT: you are running an F/Vee costing next to nothing to run compared to faster cars that cost hundreds per minute to run- the cost has direct relevence to quality of performance-- if you are constrained by budget you "race" accordingly-- so cars are back in the comfort zone.

And if there is less starters in the last race, it goes back to my earlier point that what happens on AND off the track is all part of a race weekend. A forum like this spends all year talking about motorsport, when it only really occurs over a finite period of time. Proving we are all interested in what happens off track. At a state level that raises little interest, but for those competing it certainly does. Hence if I'm better prepared and come second in the first three races, but win the last when the leaders car breaks down, and take the round win, I've got something to be proud of. Whilst for the few people watching that last race may not have been provided close and exciting racing, I can assure you the competitor has enjoyed every minute and has still put in a huge effort to drive a race car around a track at a fast pace and made no race ending errors. To that extent quantity produced better quality as only the quality competitors and cars of that weekend make it to the end.
COMMENT: You need to be very clear that your position and experience is not unique.Others that post here do race,do contribute so be a bit circumspect on who you choose to lecture on issues you clearly know little of and have even less understanding.

That wasn't my recollection at all! Other practice sessions may have had maybe 2/3 times the number of cars on track, but in sheer category numbers, it was pretty even all round.

COMMENT: I still have the actual information here. To state the obvious-- how many F/Vee-- what 10 on the Friday-maybe 14? Sportscars equalled 48 plus others in with them. F/Ford whinge about sharing with F/Vee in with them because of speed differential-- what is it 41's to 51's? Sportscars 34's to 04's- a 30 second difference. Hard work for all-- plus massive numbers on the track. There is a sensible simple way to solve the problem that gets everybody the Friday time they need.It has been done before-- simply 30 minutes on for open wheel cars-- 1 Hour for the rest-- in that hour-- preferential to slower( non slick shod) in the first 30 minutes and the 2nd 30 minutes prefer faster. Not absoloute seperation but a preference gives quality time either way to both groups and lets you do a lap or 2 over longer period.By the end of the day everyone has had as much(or as little as they can get) and the numbers still wanting more at 4.30 are those that have come later or have had problems. This wastes little time and keeps the day flowing.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

How often have you actually heard Cage ***** and moan because he can't go and do 'his flying lap'

I think you might have your senior officials mixed up there Newstalker, Cage & fast laps in what he normally drives is not possible (Tilt Tray Tow Truck)

I think one thing PIARC could do is let the Marshalling area officials know what the delay is and get them to pass it on to the waiting drivers. I know we do that at Winton & Calder and I was certainly guilty of over informing the Flagggies at the recent Sandown GT meeeting on the Saturday when I was running their radio network in Race Control.

[MPA]

With the large distances between flag points and the manning levels at PI, the Course Car can spot trouble between sessions that a flaggy standing 200 metres away will miss.

There's room for improvement everywhere and I'd suggest the time lag between the call up to dummy grid and the start of your session could be looked at.

The Course Car has been parked when meetings start running behind and this allows a few minutes between sessions to bring meetings back on time.

There are some PI Clerks of Course that will run a "Hot Track" all day with no padding to get things back on track when things go wrong. At least the padding out gives Race Control the option of letting races/sessions run the full time or distance. Even if it is a bit late.



And BTW Knackers, I was told you did a good job on the radio.

[Dasher]

The original topic was 2008 VMRC dates

Can the moderator take charge of this topic.

It started in a positive vein only to turn into a Sh*t Fight it seems from opposing camps about flag marshals, tracks, dummy grids, practice & other issues not related to the original topic.

[Bullett]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ronke

I don't know which are running at what events. But having the extra rounds has opened up the championship to categories like the Saloon's and to an extent the E30’s. Its an evolution and a number of people have put hard work into it. It also provides capacity to grow in the future. Kudos must go to people like John Good, Michael Herlahey and Michael Ronke and Terry Wade who were the ones that originally put the concept together and worked at this from a competitors point of view. I was lucky enough to attend this first meeting. The reins have been taken by John Morris who has been the main contributor and Michael Stilwell of late and recognition must go to them for there work.

Your correct in saying Winton and Calder probably don't need state racing at their venues. But they see it as an important part of the pathway of motorsport. That's why I would refute the claims that the two are after a monopoly on state racing in a bid to extract profits.

In fact I would suggest its the other way around. Win/Cald are both happy to be in a joint series were VSCRS don't wish too. VSCRS want a monopoly on the series, why??

Your correct suggesting that not all of the water has run under the bridge. I said it in another thread AASA (Winton/Calder) have a competitor (actually co-promoters in this instance) and CAMS (VSCRS) have an enemy.

At least spell Mike's name right...Herlihy, not to mention those behind the scenes you didnt mention. All those involved have worked hard, good on them as all those competitors can gain.

[MPA]

Dasher, not wanting to be rude, but have you been to a round of the State Series?

Tracks, flaggies, dummy grids, practice & other issues (including some great cars) are what the events are all about.

There's no TV, spectators, girls in lycra, stunt bikes, burn out utes or time certain events to chat about....

[Bullett]

Originally Posted by Dasher

The original topic was 2008 VMRC dates

Can the moderator take charge of this topic.

It started in a positive vein only to turn into a Sh*t Fight it seems from opposing camps about flag marshals, tracks, dummy grids, practice & other issues not related to the original topic.

VMRS...Victorian Motor Racing Series

[Dasher]

Originally Posted by MPA

Dasher, not wanting to be rude, but have you been to a round of the State Series?

Tracks, flaggies, dummy grids, practice & other issues (including some great cars) are what the events are all about.

There's no TV, spectators, girls in lycra, stunt bikes, burn out utes or time certain events to chat about....

Yeah mate plenty & i don't disagree with all your thoughts but it is off topic so start its own new thread and go for it.

[MPA]

Hmmmmmm...After publishing the dates in the 1st post everything else in this thread is either off topic, after all what's left to discuss?

Or it is the topic...

We should meet trackside one day soon for a post race beer and a chat....I'll be the one in white...


Cheers.

[aussiefveeracer]

Originally Posted by Silver 3

COMMENT: I still have the actual information here. To state the obvious-- how many F/Vee-- what 10 on the Friday-maybe 14? Sportscars equalled 48 plus others in with them. F/Ford whinge about sharing with F/Vee in with them because of speed differential-- what is it 41's to 51's? Sportscars 34's to 04's- a 30 second difference. Hard work for all-- plus massive numbers on the track. There is a sensible simple way to solve the problem that gets everybody the Friday time they need.It has been done before-- simply 30 minutes on for open wheel cars-- 1 Hour for the rest-- in that hour-- preferential to slower( non slick shod) in the first 30 minutes and the 2nd 30 minutes prefer faster. Not absoloute seperation but a preference gives quality time either way to both groups and lets you do a lap or 2 over longer period.By the end of the day everyone has had as much(or as little as they can get) and the numbers still wanting more at 4.30 are those that have come later or have had problems. This wastes little time and keeps the day flowing.

Umm, were Sportscars the main feature of the event? I'd be disappointed if they didn't have more numbers than other categories.

So what about looking at ALL the actual information omitted. Maybe how about we look at the numbers of the regular/normal categories at the meeting.
944s - 8 cars
F/Fords - about 10 cars
F/Vees - 20 cars
Historics - about 20 cars
HQs - 14 cars
IP - about 25 cars
Sport Sedans - around 14 cars

Now the Sportscars had their OWN practice sessions, and since they WERE racing altogether, despite the varing lap times, why on earth would they deserve to be split. If they couldn't handle lapping each other, I've got clue how they planned to handle 1 hour of lapping.....

So since most competitors being rather happy with the way Friday's are run, it might be wise to leave them the way they are, unless of course the number of cars each category doesn't match up, and then a call can be made on the day.

Of course, PI still leaves competitors on the Sat and Sun with less track time they what they got in total on Friday, which ever Friday is grouped. And that doesn't make sense at a State level meeting.

[ssracer]

Originally Posted by Matthew Ronke

Is that a fair market value they are charging, from what I am reading from what you have posted it is not as the VSCRC (apologies if I had acronym wrong) can't afford to run there. I guess your real beef should be with these two organisations, If you can't make these events stand on their own two feet then yes they will disappear. Blaming the VMRC is not the solution to the problem the VSCRC have. If the people in the VSCRC can't make the event financial then perhaps they should move on and let someone else try.

Instead of putting pressure on the VMRC to raise their entry fees, shouldn't pressure be on for the Sandown and P events to lower costs. This would be better option for the competitors.

Now would seem to be a good time to start talking about sustainable entry fees for 56 cars. IS the VMRS out to kill the VSCRC by covering the costs
until the VSCRC fails. Entrants wake up!

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by ssracer

Now would seem to be a good time to start talking about sustainable entry fees for 56 cars. IS the VMRS out to kill the VSCRC by covering the costs
until the VSCRC fails. Entrants wake up!

SSracer, now indeed would be a good time for the entrants to wake up.

I take it you are referring to the single day twilight meeting at Calder ?

56 cars should have been 156.

Having said that, I have it on good authority that the organising team at Calder acknowledge the event was possibly a bit early (2-3 weeks) in the year for some competitors. Although the crowded (combined) schedule make that feat a little difficult.

Let's see what transpires over 2008;

I hope the Year of the Rat doesn't see too many of them undo any of the good work already done.

But we may end up seeing some jump from sinking ships.......