Marshal Numbers

[CombeMarshal]

Originally Posted by tubbylardo

Somebody made the point earlier. There are to many different series that have the same spec. Almost every club has a stock hatch of some sort or a saloon car or a single seater.

There simply is no need. The MSA needs to have a serious look at the licenses for next year and try to bring the number down to increase grids.

As for fuel costs. Yes they are important but be honest...must of us would go anyway. It is the way that people treat you in conjunction with the costs that put people off.

I'm cutting back next year and looking at this thread, so are most other people.

I Think that because people are now buying less the government are getting less so just maybe they will drop the price!

[warweezil]

Maybe I should just persuade my father to give up driving and hijack his Megane diesel.. that seems excellent on a run... But seriously its getting stupid, and the Govt pleading innocence doesnt help, they are bigger thieves than the speculators that are driving the price hikes.

[Eddy V]

As it obviously costs me a lot to go marshalling in the UK, I too am looking at ways of saving money, but NOT marshalling. I have enough hassle and stress at work, so at least I need my racing whatever the cost.
I try and save on other things and you'd be amazed what you can do if you leave out silly things (all different for each person).
I have no need for a new mobile (that does everything bar making a phonecall) every six weeks, or for a super wide screen tv that serves tea as well and other daft contraptions only invented to get money out of people.

[NICK ALLISON]

Originally Posted by ChrisA

Nick, I can't see the MSA giving us subsidised fuel costs, as this is the main increase, can you?

The MSA should be aware of the potential for reduced marshalling numbers if travel costs continue to escalate.This may,just may, lead them to consider a degree of consolidation in the number of race meetings,the geography and rationalising the number of poorly supported race meetings and championship rounds which we all attend from time to time.
Also as I have said before elsewhere what other industry (and lets be brutally honest it is an industry )is run on the services of volunteers.?

[stroller]

I’ve not really thought this one through yet, but would throw it into the mixer for discussion.

Has anyone (ie - any of the organising Clubs) thought of the possibility of hiring Mini Buses for transporting Marshals to some events. Thinking of places like Anglesey & Cadwell particularly, there is the possibility of a pick up “corridor” say from the M6 along the North Wales/North West/Chester areas for Anglesey and Nottingham/Leicester/A46/Lincoln for Cadwell.

Or are we all TOO dependant on our individual means of transport

[White flag man]

Originally Posted by stroller

I’ve not really thought this one through yet, but would throw it into the mixer for discussion.

Has anyone (ie - any of the organising Clubs) thought of the possibility of hiring Mini Buses for transporting Marshals to some events. Thinking of places like Anglesey & Cadwell particularly, there is the possibility of a pick up “corridor” say from the M6 along the North Wales/North West/Chester areas for Anglesey and Nottingham/Leicester/A46/Lincoln for Cadwell.

Or are we all TOO dependant on our individual means of transport

Not a bad idea stroller but, I feel the first person to be picked up would have to be ready at 3am and wouldn't get home until 3am the next morning!

surely car sharing is the way forward at present?

[MacGWC]

Originally Posted by NICK ALLISON

The MSA should be aware of the potential for reduced marshalling numbers if travel costs continue to escalate.This may,just may, lead them to consider a degree of consolidation in the number of race meetings,the geography and rationalising the number of poorly supported race meetings and championship rounds which we all attend from time to time.
Also as I have said before elsewhere what other industry (and lets be brutally honest it is an industry )is run on the services of volunteers.?

Nick,

The Marshals' Club report on the Marshalling Dilemma (first issued 2000) has been updated - in light of the very many reports recently of marshals' increased costs/reduced activity. It makes all the points you make above and also some suggestions how the sport can work together to improve things.

Hopefully, the report will be discussed at the next meeting of the MSA-inspired Association of British Motor Racing Clubs and acted upon via the MSA Marshals' Working Group headed by Chris Hobson, Chairman of the BMMC.

[The Flagman]

I have my own limited company so to some extent there is scope to cover some of my motorsport activities with travelling to prospect.....etc etc.

We need an accountant who knows about these matters but it seems to me that were an employee with a proper job, paying PAYE, to register their "Self Employment" as a "Motorsport Official" with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs this could be regarded as a business.

There is a distinction between enterprise as a "hobby" and enterprise as a serious "business" so there needs to be an element of care. You account for all your "earnings" ie your £5 here and £20 there, as income. The costs to the business include equipment, first aid training, insurances and motoring expenses. All of these are incurred "wholly and exclusively" for your business. (Can't see a Proban suit having much use elsewhere)Almost invariably you will make a loss. That loss is offset against PAYE and you receive some tax back. Were your loss say £1000 you'd receive a refund of £200 at basic rate tax.

It might sound like a lot of work but if your "turnover" is less than £15k per annum it means a three line entry on a Self Assessment form and keeping records of income & expenditure. Well worth the effort.

Some activities are more generously paid than others. Track Days and Karting often pay better. Kart racing can be amazingly competitive too.

I saved up these monies to subsidise normal race meeting so I could justify the cost to my mrs. Hotel rooms at Holiday Inns come free of charge because I collect points from business stays. By being a bit creative it is possible to minimise the cost!

Good Luck

[CombeMarshal]

Mmmmm, might look into setting up Pitts Motorsport Ltd!
Might even have to employ a few of you, and a PA!

[tubbylardo]

Originally Posted by The Flagman

I have my own limited company so to some extent there is scope to cover some of my motorsport activities with travelling to prospect.....etc etc.

We need an accountant who knows about these matters but it seems to me that were an employee with a proper job, paying PAYE, to register their "Self Employment" as a "Motorsport Official" with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs this could be regarded as a business.

There is a distinction between enterprise as a "hobby" and enterprise as a serious "business" so there needs to be an element of care. You account for all your "earnings" ie your £5 here and £20 there, as income. The costs to the business include equipment, first aid training, insurances and motoring expenses. All of these are incurred "wholly and exclusively" for your business. (Can't see a Proban suit having much use elsewhere)Almost invariably you will make a loss. That loss is offset against PAYE and you receive some tax back. Were your loss say £1000 you'd receive a refund of £200 at basic rate tax.

It might sound like a lot of work but if your "turnover" is less than £15k per annum it means a three line entry on a Self Assessment form and keeping records of income & expenditure. Well worth the effort.

Some activities are more generously paid than others. Track Days and Karting often pay better. Kart racing can be amazingly competitive too.

I saved up these monies to subsidise normal race meeting so I could justify the cost to my mrs. Hotel rooms at Holiday Inns come free of charge because I collect points from business stays. By being a bit creative it is possible to minimise the cost!

Good Luck

If you were to register as self employed you would have to pay class 2 NIC at £2.20 per week and you would need to be VAT registered to claim input tax back against output tax (which there would be none). Plus you could pay yourself the Inland Rev mileage rate of 40p per mile out of the business profits thus making an even bigger loss.

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by The Flagman

I have my own limited company so to some extent there is scope to cover some of my motorsport activities with travelling to prospect.....etc etc.

We need an accountant who knows about these matters but it seems to me that were an employee with a proper job, paying PAYE, to register their "Self Employment" as a "Motorsport Official" with Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs this could be regarded as a business.

There is a distinction between enterprise as a "hobby" and enterprise as a serious "business" so there needs to be an element of care. You account for all your "earnings" ie your £5 here and £20 there, as income. The costs to the business include equipment, first aid training, insurances and motoring expenses. All of these are incurred "wholly and exclusively" for your business. (Can't see a Proban suit having much use elsewhere)Almost invariably you will make a loss. That loss is offset against PAYE and you receive some tax back. Were your loss say £1000 you'd receive a refund of £200 at basic rate tax.

It might sound like a lot of work but if your "turnover" is less than £15k per annum it means a three line entry on a Self Assessment form and keeping records of income & expenditure. Well worth the effort.

Some activities are more generously paid than others. Track Days and Karting often pay better. Kart racing can be amazingly competitive too.

I saved up these monies to subsidise normal race meeting so I could justify the cost to my mrs. Hotel rooms at Holiday Inns come free of charge because I collect points from business stays. By being a bit creative it is possible to minimise the cost!

Good Luck

RIGHT - WERE DO I START SAYING IGNORE THIS???

I'm sorry, Flagman, but, it sounds like you are registered as self-employed with whichever tracks you've been working for, in which case you probably have a case for claiming monies and expenditure - but you've made this look like ALL marshals can do the same when they only go out on a weekend basis.

When you volunteer for a race meeting you are NOT entering into a contract of employment - so any of those employment regulations DO NOT APPLY.

Nor are you entering into any sort of self-employment contract.

(but see below about my knowledge of the matter)

The monies you are paid (£5 or £20 or whatever) are EXPENSES (NOT EARNINGS) and therefore DO NOT QUALIFY as INCOME and cannot be claimed back in any shape or form whatsoever. Also, you do NOT have to declare them anywhere - SA or PAYE, because they are not taxable.

Nor can the cost of overalls be claimed, because "wholly and exclusively" only applies to a bone fida employment AND NOT A HOBBY.

Tax and all that is very complicated and it is too easy to get it wrong. I must confess that my current working knowledge is sketchy, but in nearly 20 years doing both marshalling and tax, no-one has ever come back to me and said I was wrong - either for or against me. In fact, I've had numerous discussions where my viewpoint has been agreed with by better minds than mine.

And, if Flagman wants me to find out more about this then I will be happy to do so - in fact, almost curious to do so!

I just don't want you out there to think you can make claims that are not allowable - only to find out years down the line that you were wrong and you now owe lots of money........................

[Stephen Green]

Shelagh, some very valid points and I think it would be foolish for any marshal to attempt to hoodwink the Inland Revenue or HM Customs. Please get professional advice before going down any route like this or, as Shelagh says, you could end up owing lots of money.

Can we get back onto the topic of Marshal numbers rather than tax evasion.

[HairyDJ]

Fuel is easy to identify as a rising cost - not just for marshals, think of the mpg that the competitors get on track + their van to tow them to & from the event. I notice that the cost of my packed lunch, or a meal / drinks during my journey is creeping up too.

I'm quite prepared to use a tank of fuel to get to an event that I want to be at, but am not so inclined to put myself out to help where there are not enough ticks in my personal ratings.
A circuit with traffic congestion to get in or out will cost me fuel, time and hassle – less likely to have my support.
A circuit with poor facilities - parking / refreshments / toilets will also slide down my list. Similarly, absence of dry shelter for me / my kit, or dangerously muddy slides down the bank where there could have been decent steps will put me off.
An organising club that has a realistic timetable and no "hidden extras" will gain my support.
Guest tickets – my bad luck that whenever I get one, nobody is free; but when they are, there isn’t a ticket. I still count it as a big “plus” whether used or not.
Chief Marshals who respond efficiently to emails / PMs etc and give postal stuff in good time are really appreciated. I accept that sometimes it's the event / circuit / club that don't always give you guys the support, but if they let you down, then they're not making me feel wanted either.
Goodie bags / breakfast vouchers / prize draws are worth more to me as a gesture of appreciation than as an item of value. Similarly, a lunch bag or a mid event visit with bottled drinks / doughnuts show that somebody cares - aaaaahhh.
I'm also thinking more about driver involvement and behaviour - events where a driver joins us on post - even for a part day suggest a good attitude. Conversely, a bunch of self centred to$$3rs who ignore flags don't deserve marshals - indeed they don't deserve to be allowed on the track at all.

Finally, there are the impossible to measure "feel good" things - the welcomes, the banter, the thanks, the CM who manages to visit every post and say hello - these make me loyal and much more likely to return.

Having scribbled all of the notes above, I’m not sure whether I’m going to be cutting back or just getting fussier!

[PeterM]

HMRC will only allow losses against other income if the "business" is run with a view to profit. So don't even go there.

[fastmart]

surely car sharing is the way forward at present?[/quote]

we have try'd this in our area it worked for half a dozzen meetings, till the end of that season then it fizzeled out, not only that some poeple wanted to stay back a bit and catch up on the days events with other "oranges" and some needed to shoot off to get to work the night shift.