[LM24] F1 attacks Le Mans

[Dutton]

I nearly gave up about 6 pages into the thread, but stuck at it.

There is a bit of a disturbing amount of hate out there. It is all a bit destructive, really: what good is an improvement in "success", or whatever, if it is born out of impotent hate? What I find interesting is that a great many people, who still follow F1, would agree entirely with many of the criticisms made by those with this extreme hate festering in their souls.

I think we need to remember, too, that whilst F1 is easily the most popular motorsport, this does not mean it is mainstream in any real sense. It remains a minority interest despite being the popularity-behemoth of the motorsport world. I guess what I mean is what is it that F1 is meant to be denying these other forms of motorsport? The ability to not have much more popularity, but with F1 not being there to have more?

F1 picks up a bunch of non-enthusiast followers as a function of being, relatively speaking, very popular: if F1 were to implode, then how is this going to really affect any other series? The enthusiast core that followed F1 would continue to follow other series just as they had before, and the fluff would float off and do whatever they do. The one possible actively positive function for the remaining series could well be a bit of an increase in truly hardcore followers (people with more time on their hands since their F1-time was now laying vacant). I don't see this having any noticable impact on anything, though, in the terms that popularity/success (or whatever) is measured.

I think what has been demonstrated in this "discussion" is one central truth: whether the enthusiast-personality likes something is not a function of relative popularity, but rather how closely said thing appeals to said enthusiast's personal desires. Therefore, what relevance should relative popularity regards the world in general have to do with anything? It matters insofar as maintining enough attention for said branch to continue to exist, but beyond that who cares what order the popularity is? Something is always going to be first, and that first place is usually going to be pretty dominant.

I know it doesn't bother me in the slightest which motorsport series obtains the most attention as a thing in itself, although of course the ability to see different things is affected by relative popularity. I would gladly pay a significant subscription fee for an all-encompassing motorsport network, but, unfortuantely, that is rather unlikely to happen: why? Because motorpsort is a definite minority interest. This reality of relative popularity is frustrating given I personally see motorpsort as much better use of TV time than anything aired, but the great majority of people disagree: does that mean it it would be fair for me to blame all this on the other things because they hold a wider appeal/propaganada-advantage?

If I lived in a place that had numerous race-tracks close to me, well, then life would be good: the lack of media offerings would be irrelevant. Canada in general is not one of these places: particularly western Canada - especially northern Canada.

I suppose I am a bit peturbed by the extreme and unnecessary hostility shown towards one what is merely one branch of motorsport. Drag racing, for example, really does nothing for me (I can tolerate it for a little while trackside, but can't hack it for more than about 10 seconds on TV); it happens that drag racing is remarkably popular over here, and, I've found, this means other things I have a lot more interest in gets attention detracted from them as a result. Am I meant to hate drag racing for this?

I understand the underlying problems in this particular instance stems from some rather bad dealings of a very few at the very top of F1/FIA power. That whole axis is destructive and unnecessary, but that doesn't mean the entire sport is responsible for those actions - neither does it mean that sport is responsible for everything that has ever happened to other forms of motorsport.

OK, anyway, I must be rambling pretty badly by now. I will stop.

[Aysedasi]

Interesting ramble. Reminds me of some of the stuff that AdvB posted in the Autosport thread a while back. The concept that F1 is the most popular form of motorsport is one that keenly interests me, because I'm firmly convinced (and have been for some time) that this arises to a not insignificant extent due to ignorance and the lack of knowledge of the great motor racing unwashed that there exist other far more entertaining forms of motorsport - also forms of motorsport which give massively greater VFM too.

I don't bother knocking F1 every 5 minutes. I watch it and yes, I have regularly fallen asleep watching it - and I don't enjoy it as I did back in the 80s and 90s, but that's a personal opinion/preference thing. What concerns me is that so many people don't get/take the chance to experience life beyond F1. I think that's where annoyance at what is probably an inevitable situation goes beyond that for some into 'hate' - none of which is actually justified - it's horses for courses, surely? If F1 did implode it would be interesting to see what the 'fluff' would decide to do......

[Mal]

The level of attention a form of the sport is not important to me except for the fact that it creates the interest of the big teams / manufacturers and sponsors. Whilst I love the small teams and the endeavours they go to, in reality and in general (there are exceptions) thay are rich club racers who have stepped up a level. Sportscars are at their best when manufacturers are going head to head as has been seen in ALMS for the last few years and at Le Mans this year (and for years in GT1)

Manufacturers will only really get involved when there is public interest and /or technological relavance

[Redlake27]

I love Sportscar racing - and was a regular spectator in the Gp C / WSC era.

Up and coming F1 drivers such as Warwick, Brundle, Bellof, Thackwell and Palmer used to MISS F1 races to compete in Group C. It made it worth watching.

These days, Lamy, McNish, Wurz and co may be ex-F1 drivers, but I don't get the same feeling of watching the pinnacle of talent in action. Their F1 careers stalled - for a reason.

This year the Audi v Peugeot battle has the possibility of making LMES interesting again, but I can't help thinking that for the last five years or so Audi v Rollcentre and Pescarolo has been corporate pothunting.....

[Tom87]

Originally Posted by Tom87

I also doubt that at the moment F1 is having any impact on sportscars, but there is one F1-issue which threatens a number of other motorsports and that is where to host the British GP. I was horrified to hear rumours that Donny was being considered to replace Silverstone in the near future, I still hope the LMS will move back there at some stage and the last thing I want to go back to is a butchered track with Tilke's stamp of approval and a vast sea of run-off areas.

Well they haved gone and done it...
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,1895...775442,00.html

Bets on which iconic corners and brilliant spectator viewing areas will be first to bite the dust? Sigh.

[Sarthe82]

Originally Posted by Tom87

Well they haved gone and done it...
http://www.planetf1.com/story/0,1895...775442,00.html

Bets on which iconic corners and brilliant spectator viewing areas will be first to bite the dust? Sigh.

Made my heart sink when I saw that, they'll spend millions destroying the character of the circuit but could still lose the race again over something as trivial as forgetting the slice of lemon in Bernie's tonic water, makes me sick!

[JAG]

Forget F1 attacking Le Mans, these days F1's attacking itself.

The way Silverstone's been treated is a disgrace, I was very critical of the circuit, but it has improved dramatically.

I just don't know were the sports heading, no respect for it's history, the sooner there's a breakaway series the better.

I don't know what's going to happen to Silverstoane, but hopefully they will 'try' to fill the F1 void by promoting other series tola greater degree, much like Brands Hatch does with A1GP, DTM and the WTCC.

[the sniper]

I was going to write a long post about why Formula 1 is the most popular motor sport but it's basic really, it's the most accessible through the most important media there is, television. A lot of people that watch Formula 1 are not hardcore fans, they are members of the general public looking for something to watch on a Sunday afternoon. Formula 1 is easy to follow if you don't get into the technicalities of the sport and it's not to long. Another factor is that there are only a couple British drivers, so it's to pick out someone you want to 'cheer on'.

The reason these viewers don't then follow other motor sport is also pretty simple, your average Joe F1 viewer also watches other big sports that are on the main channels i.e. football, rugby, tennis... They just don't have time to also watch (and mainstream TV broadcasters don't have space to show) Sportscar's, Touring Cars and Rally. Sportscars does not lend it's self to a mainstream audience, can you imagine millions of people sitting down to watch a LMS race for 6 hours. Look at the changes that are happening in Cricket at the moment, mainly because people are not intrested in watching the same thing for hours and hours anymore.

Originally Posted by JAG

Do F1 fans, in the main, follow other formulas, so many appear to be armchair supporters, following their countries latest driving star, then drifting away when their star fades, i.e. Spain and Alonso.

I'd suggest those who follow non F1 areas of the sport, have more than a passing knowledge of 2-3 other formulas, and understand and appreciate the contribution they make.

This is one of the posts that made me give up on this thread. My main interest is Formula 1, but I follow virtually every championship there is. I would say that hardcore F1 fans like myself and people who come on this forum all follow atleast three series. I'm surprised anyone could come out with such a ridiculous comment...

[Aysedasi]

People who come on this forum - yes. The majority of F1 fans - no. That's the whole (rather pointless) point isn't it - people like us would like to have motor racing and coverage designed for our likes and dislikes, but that's never going to happen, as the majority of the revenue isn't derived from people like us......

[JAG]

Originally Posted by the sniper

This is one of the posts that made me give up on this thread. My main interest is Formula 1, but I follow virtually every championship there is. I would say that hardcore F1 fans like myself and people who come on this forum all follow atleast three series. I'm surprised anyone could come out with such a ridiculous comment...

For every F1 fan like yourself, and myself in the past, there are dozens who take only a passing, armchair interest.

The problem is the F1 circus is geared around the needs of these 'fans', plus the almighty dollar. Classice European events are threatened with removal from the calander, similar threats to Australia and the USA, yet the likes of Turkey and non descript Asian/Middle East events remain. Privateers, which were the backbone of F1 grids, have be driven away almost entirely, leading to this precarious situation they're in today with battles between manufactuers and the FIA.

I took a stand in the late 90's I wouldn't watch F1 until something changed, since, it's become even worse.

Now we have the disgraceful way Silverstone has been treated, but will F1 fans take a stand, they won't, they''ll snap up tickets for next years event. Then, when Donington can't fullfill it's obligations, and the British GP is no more, they'll move onto the next fad, leaving enthusiasts like yourself wondering were it all went wrong.

[Aysedasi]

Remember guys - this isn't just an 'attack F1' thread'......

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by GTfour

only car I suspect breeched the 113Db barrier with ease,was the Courage Mugen though.[/COLOR]

I was thinking the same ..... it certainly sounded the loudest ..... brilliant !!!

How could they get away with that then ?

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by JAG

For every F1 fan like yourself, and myself in the past, there are dozens who take only a passing, armchair interest.

Ah, OK. I though by F1 fans you meant you fools like myself who stay up all night to watch the Australian GP (Sebring 12hrs till 2am, then F1). The 'F1 Fans' your talking about are what I call glory hunters, they only watch to cheer on 'our Lewis' (RIP Button). There are other's that watch F1 that I would not call fans, these are people who watch for the crashes and people who watch because there is nothing else to do/watch on a Sunday afternoon.

[Aysedasi]

Yep - as it ever has been...... But, sadly for us, it's those 'fans' who generate the revenue.....

I well remember staying up to watch 'our Nige's' big day in Oz which ended in a shreded tyre - (86?) and then leaving home at 4 am to drive to Brands (I think) for the 1000kms.......

[Tom87]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Yep - as it ever has been...... But, sadly for us, it's those 'fans' who generate the revenue.....

I well remember staying up to watch 'our Nige's' big day in Oz which ended in a shreded tyre - (86?) and then leaving home at 4 am to drive to Brands (I think) for the 1000kms.......

Now THAT is dedication!

Not to give anything away for those who haven't watched the British GP but intend to... It was certainly worth watching this time around. The only negative for me was the general acceptance from the drivers, teams and media that the move was going to take place. No one seemed to be concerned about the possible changes to Donington or supporting Silverstone which is my opinion more than adequate for international racing (although apparently it needs a few extra VIP seats...). Either that or everyone bought Bernie's losing the British GP altogether bluff as the French also look likely too and sees moving as the lesser of two evils.

Either way I can't see how Donington could possibly host 150,000 fans without building a whole new road infrastructure in the surrounding area - I queued for 15 minutes this year to get into Silverstone for the Renault World Series, at the same event on a showery day in '07 I sat in the car for three hours to get from the motorway through Donny's gates.

[Tom87]

Just spotted the dedicated thread for the Donny/Silverstone thread - mods please move my post if its appropriate.

[chewymonster]

F1 wants to cut it's fuel consumption by 50% by 2015. F1 currently uses about 75 liters of fuel per 100 km. The Audi R10 TDI only uses 42 liters per 100 km (at LeMans) So you can say that Le Mans racing is already ahead in technology in this regard.

(of course Le Mans racers are slower and heavier, but they still have a huge fuel economy advantage, 78% better mpg)

Today's F1 race was exciting, the rain does it every time.

[dxk1]

Originally Posted by chewymonster

Today's F1 race was exciting, the rain does it every time.

I must say that today's F1 race at Silverstone seemed to say that there's still something for the F1 drivers to learn from the Sportscar Drivers. The way those F1s were spinning was enough to make you dizzy. Contrast that with Le Mans the last two years and how relatively few spins there were in worse conditions. However, Mr. Hamilton would make a superb Sportscar Driver as he was just flying through the wet and looked very impressive. An amazing tallent for such a young gent.

DL

[Oldtony]

I think one of the frustrations of long term motorsport followers with the way the sport is going is the increasing level of "Celebrity' and the decreasing level of technical andvance in the sport these days. This is lead by F1, as it's very nature is to promote individual "Celebrity" by way of the WDC.
Many of us see other categories as more relevant, and more team oriented. (Or at least other members of teams get a fairer amount of cred).

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by The Badger

I was thinking the same ..... it certainly sounded the loudest ..... brilliant !!!

How could they get away with that then ?

most likely because the car runs with straight exhaust pipes in the JLMS as its a 2006 courage mugen and they couldnt put a silencer on the LC70 mugen basically because there isnt a silencer for the LC70 as it ran in 2007 with straight pipes as well because it had the AER 3.6 V8 turbo engine.

god i wish i could have seen the LC70 mugen in action again especially at LM, that car really shocked the senses, made an astonishing noise and looked the dogs nuts in 2006 bodywork and lets not forget the huge flames it shoots out everytime it slows down, amazing