BTCC independents ?

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

why Colin TURKINGTON won the independents title ahead of Mat JACKSON, while the BMW Dealer Team UK finished 2nd in the overall standing ?

Team Hallford too, it isnt neitehr factory team nor independent, why ?

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

why Colin TURKINGTON won the independents title ahead of Mat JACKSON, while the BMW Dealer Team UK finished 2nd in the overall standing ?

Due to funky ways of counting.

[BootsOntheSide]

The Indy cup gives points for the highest placed Indepedent in each race, regardless of where the manufacturer cars were. So if one race finishes Gio, Jackson, Jones, Turkington and the other is Turkington, Jackson, Plato- Turkington is ahead in the overall standings but Jackson in the Indies (I know it was the other way around in reality, but it took me ages to get this example to even vaguely work....)

As for what classes as an Independent - long story. Jackson's funding presumably doesn't come directly from BMW in Germany, while Halfords don't qualify as a lot of their kit comes from their days as a works Honda team. Or something.

[stedevil]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

The Indy cup gives points for the highest placed Indepedent in each race, regardless of where the manufacturer cars were. So if one race finishes Gio, Jackson, Jones, Turkington and the other is Turkington, Jackson, Plato- Turkington is ahead in the overall standings but Jackson in the Indies (I know it was the other way around in reality, but it took me ages to get this example to even vaguely work....)

And it's so confusing that in fact even that example is incorrect

Full standings
MJ 12 + 12 = 24
CT 8 + 15 = 23

Indie
MJ 15 + 12 = 27
CT 10 + 15 = 25

[cos]

Or looking at it another way; when it was a "BMW track", Jackson tended to perform better (and taking outright wins). When conditions didn't suit the RWD cars and the BMWs ended up in the middle of the pack, Turkington tended to stay out of trouble and pick up more points than Jackson.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

Team Hallford too, it isnt neitehr factory team nor independent, why ?

THe Halfords team received too much support from Honda to be in the independants, however it would have required Honda UK to pay the Entry fee into the Manufacturers championship. Something they didn't want to do, or Head Office told them not to.

End result Halfords in neither the Manufacturers nor the Independants championships.

[awrb]

Put simply, when counting up the indie points, the manufacturer cars are taken out.
So if a race finishes Turkington, Gio, Jackson, Turkington will make 5 points over Jackson in the overall championship. In the independents, Gio is taken out, so Jackson came second, and Turkington only made three points over him.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

THe Halfords team received too much support from Honda to be in the independants, however it would have required Honda UK to pay the Entry fee into the Manufacturers championship. Something they didn't want to do, or Head Office told them not to.

End result Halfords in neither the Manufacturers nor the Independants championships.

or maybe because Honda has a works effrot with JAS/N-Technology and Tommo, so it has no sense to have 2 diffrents cars as officials

[werner]

That's not a good reason. BMW proofs that, with 3 worksteams in the WTCC. And since Dynamics drive a different car in a different championship, I don't see the problem.

[Craner Curves]

Don't forget that points for pole, leading a lap and fastest lap don't count for Independents. Jackson had 12 of these extra points in the main standings, compared to Turkington's 9.

[sukispeed]

I think the whole system is too confusing, I am a Turkington fan, more than a Jackon fan, but looking at the last round results, Jackson wins two races and beats Turkington in the overall point standing, he should have been the Independents champ too. I tihnk that Jasckon could win the the overall Championship next year. He and his team were really strong this year.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

THe Halfords team received too much support from Honda to be in the independants, however it would have required Honda UK to pay the Entry fee into the Manufacturers championship. Something they didn't want to do, or Head Office told them not to.

End result Halfords in neither the Manufacturers nor the Independants championships.

so it is the same case of Tom Coronel in the WTCC, not a factory car, but not independent too

[awrb]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

so it is the same case of Tom Coronel in the WTCC, not a factory car, but not independent too

But with a proper reason, as opposed to them just being too fast for it.

[Icebaby]

Originally Posted by ScotsBrutesFan

THe Halfords team received too much support from Honda to be in the independants, however it would have required Honda UK to pay the Entry fee into the Manufacturers championship. Something they didn't want to do, or Head Office told them not to.

End result Halfords in neither the Manufacturers nor the Independants championships.

I tend to agree here, your either an independant or a manufacturer however recently teams like BMW Dealer Uk and Dynamics have been pushing the boundaries.

Take Dynamics, if Honda have no envolvement in the car then why plaster the Honda branding on the roof/overalls etc, they constantly refer to the car as being Honda therefore this is a manufacturer who doesn't want to pay the entry fee, same with Jackson motorsport, again why call yourself a "dealer BMW" outfit with BMW personal and the car prepared at other facilities (so i hear), both should be manufactuers and the BTCC would do them selves a favour by insisting on this.

Having said this why would BMW or Honda want to pay the entry fee as both teams give the exposure they want anyway, what would be good is teams remove all the manufacturer branding on the car (inc Badges) and then insist that the manufacturer pays a contribution to the advertising. Until this happens the manufacturers like BMW are laughing with WSR and Jackson promoting the brand for them without actually laying out a load of cash!.

[El_Gibleto]

The Jackson car is prepared at their own workshop, not far from the car dealership they run.
Accident, an independent company are the title sponsor, there is no direct funding from BMW, and the majority of the team have been involved with Mat for several years.

Surely it is up to the manufacturer to decide if they want to enter the 'manufacturers' championship?

[kristof14]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

Having said this why would BMW or Honda want to pay the entry fee as both teams give the exposure they want anyway, what would be good is teams remove all the manufacturer branding on the car (inc Badges) and then insist that the manufacturer pays a contribution to the advertising. Until this happens the manufacturers like BMW are laughing with WSR and Jackson promoting the brand for them without actually laying out a load of cash!.

Surely that sort of tactic would be more harmful to the teams than the manufacturer. If Dynamics had gone to Honda and said "We're going to build your Civic in S200 spec but we refuse to tell people it's a Honda unless you give us money", Honda would have probably a) laughed as people would still have known it was a Honda and b) probably not submitted any of the homologation paperwork needed.

With the BMWs, the cars are readily for sale to anyone wishing to buy them and the parts can be sourced through your local dealer if you have the serial numbers. If a team wishes to run a BMW they are welcome to but to then demand money from them would just be suicide surely!

[Aslak Vind]

Its like most privateer teams in the DTC, pulling out all the logos on their privateer S2000 cars. Due to lack of manufacturer and importer support.

It does not really make any difference, now does it. People can still see the make of the car..

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Icebaby

recently teams like BMW Dealer Uk and Dynamics have been pushing the boundaries.

Dynamics pushed the boundary too far, however accepted the decision that they were ineligeble for Independent status.

The rules need to be clearer as to what excludes a team from Independent status.

Most Independent teams will buy ex-works cars, and will probably recieve some support with their purchase.

My own opinion would be that as long as the team pays for the support, then that is fine, but if the factory offer their services without charging then it excludes them from Independent status.

[awrb]

But that would need ot be monitored. Team Dynamics could easily pay Honda 50p and get into the indy sereis. And as for Jackson, that would be money coming from BMW anyway.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

My own opinion would be that as long as the team pays for the support, then that is fine, but if the factory offer their services without charging then it excludes them from Independent status.

The rules are already very simple and very clear. If a team receives more manufacturer support than would be available to any other team then they are not independents. No other team would get as much support from Honda as Dynamics are getting so they can't be independents.

You might remember that when RAC/WSR first got the BMWs they had a factory engineer with them for the first few meetings. That was acceptable as the same support was available to any other team who wanted it, providing of course that they paid for it.

Jackson had an enginner at every round because, I assume, they chose to pay for it. WSR or Motorbase could have done exactly the same if they wanted to.

[Subaru_WRX_STi]

I don't remember in what race but clearly Tim Harvey said that Jackson BMW has a lot of support from RBM the Belgian structure that run Andy Priaulx

[kristof14]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

I don't remember in what race but clearly Tim Harvey said that Jackson BMW has a lot of support from RBM the Belgian structure that run Andy Priaulx

Not directly BMW then, if any team can be considered the main BMW team it would be Schnitzer

[mark_l]

Originally Posted by Subaru_WRX_STi

I don't remember in what race but clearly Tim Harvey said that Jackson BMW has a lot of support from RBM the Belgian structure that run Andy Priaulx

What kind of support would that be? Could mechanics from RBM work on Jacksons car and it not be classed as manufacturer support, even though RBM probably has the same kind of support from BMW as Schnitzer.