Chevrolet Camaro (The IROC cars)

[Al Weyman]

I have wrote here before on a long term project I have in my garage, renovating 1977 Camaro IROC Banjo Matthews chassis No. 11. Imagine my surprize when I see this car offered for sale in the USA http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listin...OC_Camaro.html

Now I know my car is genuine as it (car No. 11) and car No.10 who I believe a member here (thatorangething) owns the remanents of were imported into this country when the first IROC series debanded in 1980 by a Mr. Brian Rice. Now this guy is offering a car claiming it to be the same chassis number as mine.

What worries me is the car looks exactly like the one rebuilt by IROC Penske Racing) for their 25 anniversary (same colour, incorrect wheels etc.). Also i was in communication at the time with them and they told me where to find the number and I reported back to them that mine was No.11. Its got me thinking that the car they rebuilt may have been built from spare bits lying around and may never have actually competed but sold on as a genuine ex-competing car with a 'genuine' chassis number stamped on it from a car that did race my personal thoughts only of course but it has got me thinking along these lines) as I believe the other one they own currently resides in the Talladage Musuem of Speed.

I have tried to contact the owner and have also contacted the owner of the site who has assured me he has passed on the message but the car remains for sale on the site claiming to be No.11 and the owner refuses to resond t my emails which makes me even more suspicious.

Not a good situation as I was preposing spending a fair bit of time and money on genuine No.11 the one that sits in my garage!

My original thread about the project I started way back in 2004 is here: http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=58110

[allenbrown]

An interesting subject. I'd be interested to know:

1) What form does the number 11 take on your car? A number stamped onto the frame? A Banjo Matthews data plate? An IROC data plate?

2) What other Banjo Camaros do we know of? Can we find out about the numbering on those cars and see if a pattern starts to emerge?

Allen

[Al Weyman]

The number is stamped in a pretty inaccessable place that would be hard to clone, it has a Banjo Matthews part number and IROC 11 stamped on it, to further confuse things other parts of the car that may be interchangeable eg front hubs, gearbox cross member, braces holding the screens in are also stamped. On my car gearbox crossmember is stamped 11, one front hub and rear struts (one off) 5 and one 11. I have pointed this out in my email to the vendor that maybe he has seen these numbers and not the hard to find correct number on the chassis and may have incorrectly deduced that he has car Number11 but he will not respond and is presumably convinced his is correct.

As I said member thatorangething i believe has N0. 10 which was orignally owned by another member Jeff Barley who leftt he remains in storage at Brands but had to be moved when Mr Palmer took over. There is definitely one in the Talladaga Musuem pctured below. Another one was offered for sale on ebay a while back which looked genuine enough. Actually i would thought unlike the earlier version which is roadcar based as featured in this months Motorsport which would be simple to replicate one of these tubular frame cars would be nigh impossible to clone and would cost more than they would be worth so i don't doubt the authentisity of these other cars.

[allenbrown]

Any chance you could send me an image of that number (allen@oldracingcars.com) and its exact location? I won't publish it but it would be useful if we're able to get other owners to give us comparable images. They may be more willing to send them to someone independent.

This might allow us to find out if, as you suspect, component numbers are being mistaken for chassis numbers.

[allenbrown]

Al

Did you speak to Bob Russo, the guy who owned the pink car variously referred to as #14 or #17? Advert and phone number here.

Allen

[Al Weyman]

I will try to take a shot of it tomorrow. The pink car was the one I was referring to on ebay but I never spoke with the guy.

I think one of the problems here and I got this from IROC, the car's chassis number and the number they raced under were not related but I think some owners maybe under the impression that they are. The cars could race with any number and were changed about and I would imagine certain drivers would prehaps want a certain number or if a car failed in practice and a spare wheeled out I would imagine the number would be changed. My car was unfortunately originally a not particularly stunning beige colour as loved by GM in the 70's and that is the colour I will finally paint it much as I would like it to have been black or red! Its only the cars colour that did not change not the race number which as I said was variable at least thats how as I understand it.

[Al Weyman]

Incidently I dont think that pink car as been restored faithfully, lovely job but things like the spats on the front and incorrect front spoiler, incorrect rear arches (they should be pop rivited on with rivits showing, see the black car in the museum) incorrect spec engine with wrong inlet manfold and way too much power. If you are gonna restore one try to get it right I say!

[Al Weyman]

I think we have had a result. Art from MotorsportsMarket.com website has just emailed me this and I hope he does not mind me reproducing it here:

Hello Allan,

Well guess what? The owner looked where you indicated and found the number "10", not "11". So he is now going to re-research the car and sort it all out. Our website listing will be changed shortly to delete the reference to chassis #11.
Crazy stuff. Glad the number no longer conflicts with your car. That is good for everyone!

Art
MotorsportsMarket.com

So as Art says a good result for everyone! Thanks 10/10ths.

I refered earlier to thatorangething having the remains of No.10 but I may have got that wrong and it may have been number 9 as I can only confirm whats on my car, maybe he could have a look and pitch in here.

[allenbrown]

Good news.

I'm happy to contact the owner of the pink one and get the number from that too if you can give me the details of the location and appearance of the number on the car. Could you do the same for the Talledega car? And if one of us could get Peter (thatorangething) to do the same, we'd have five cars identified.

This thread is useful on the two UK cars and has Peter's mobile number on it.

Allen

[Al Weyman]

Hi Allen,

Its a bit hard to locate and was probably why there was a problem here, even when IROC told me wher it was I had a bit of a problem. You need to jack the car under the passenger side lower wishbone to raise the upper wishbone and remove the passenger side front wheel. Then near where the front spring locates and to the rear of the spring bucket and under the raised wishbone you will find the number. I believe Penske/IROC own the musuem car.

[allenbrown]

Blimey! No wonder there are problems with identification.

[Al Weyman]

You never know it may have been a clever way to stop cloning the chassis as it looks like the top wishbone mounting and spring bucket may have been welded in after the number had been stamped.

[edeanbutler]

I have had three of the IROC Camaros -- 1974 first series number 11 (all but mine believed to have been built from road car white bodies, mine being the prototype and built from a 1972 road car) and Banjo Matthews 1977 cars 1 and 7. All three are currently in the UK. I never looked in the strange chassis number place describe in an earlier post -- never knew it existed, and have no idea if the same location is applicable to the first series cars. But, the three cars have the above number in several places easily seen from inside the cars. All three of these cars are very original.

It would be nice to have a register of these cars. We need to find someone with the knowledge and time to do it.

[Al Weyman]

Hi Dean thats interesting that the cars 1 and 7 are in this country do you know who originally bought them in as I understood it was only 10 and 11 that Brian Rice bought in but this is all 2nd hand so I don't know for sure.

I have seen pictures of your earlier car in Motorsport and as I recollect. As far as numbers on components on the car this is where the confusion comes in as you may well have components on the car that have been swapped or mixed up from other cars. For example on the front nearside hub I believe is a Number 5 stamped, on the rear struts that hold in the rear screen a different number (7? wanna do a swap) and on the gearbox crossmember Number 11 which is the correct number. I got my information where the number was from the IROC Crew chief and it is correct and as its on the main chassis and not on a removable component has to be the one to go by, if you still have the car please take a look and post back what it is. BTW I forgot to take a shot of the number did'nt I, I will see if I can get at it tomorrow.

Also if you still have the car is there any chance of some detailed photographs of certain areas especially at the rear end under the rear fenders or better still to be able to come and have a look at the car sometime and take some pictures.

BTW welcome to 10/10ths.

[edeanbutler]

I personally imported all three of the cars mentioned in my initial post -- in 2005. I still have Series 1 car blue 11 -- the one written up in Motor Sport several months back. I have sold the Banjo Matthews cars. Black number 7 is about three miles from my Droitwich area home, while white number 1 is in storage at my home. I will be traveling most of the next few weeks but will eventually try to take the photos you want. You are also welcome to come see the cars. I am sure I can arrange for you to see black 7, too.

[Al Weyman]

Excellent Dean I look forward to seeing them.

[John Turner]

I'll change the title of the thread shortly in order that it sits correctly, alphabetically, on this forum, particularly since we are now picking up details of cars other than just Al's. I suggest, 'Chevrolet Camaro (The IROC cars)' Agreed?

[Al Weyman]

Go for it!

[cydna]

Al ,do you know where no11 is now?

[Al Weyman]

Yeah, about 8ft away from where I am sitting, in my back yard! :-)